176: Hiring an Employee or an Independent Contractor
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Summary:
When you are ready to hire, you’ll have to decide whether to hire an employee or bring on an independent contractor. Kim Ottone-Tank, owner of Apronstrings Pet Sitting, has been following this discussion for many years. Kim shares what the major differences are and why it’s important to know what the best fit is for your business. She also helps us understand what some of the pros and cons are for each, and how we have to set up our pricing to make sure we’re still making a profit after we hire.
Topics on this episode:
What’s the difference between an employee or contractor?
Are there any advantages?
What are my obligations to an employee?
Where do I go for more information in my state?
Main take away: An employee is someone you hire to work on your team that you can train and supervise. A contractor is someone who is running their own business that you're borrowing to work in yours.
About our guest:
Apronstrings was founded in 1990 by Kim Tank, a registered veterinary technician. Kim is a Certified Professional Pet Sitter through Pet Sitters International. In addition, she has become Fear Free Certified, a program developed to reduce fear, stress and anxiety in pets.
She hired her first employee in 1996, after carefully researching hiring practices in the industry. Her staff have always been employees, covered by her bond, liability insurance and worker's compensation policy. All of her staff receive intensive ongoing training and all are either certified in pet first aid, or are currently enrolled in a class.
Founder and CEO, Kim has always known she was destined to work with animals and has devoted her life to working in pet care. After living in Concord for many years, she relocated her family to Pollock Pines, CA, in 2016, to raise goats and (more) chickens. She has 4 cats and a dog as well. Kim splits her time between the Bay Area and El Dorado County to maintain a close connection with her sitters, her clients and their loving pets. When not working, she loves running, kayaking, mentoring other pet sitters and exploring El Dorado Wine Country.
Links:
Email Kim: areservations@apronstringsonline.com
Kim’s Previous Episode: https://www.petsitterconfessional.com/episodes/153
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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
Provided by otter.ai
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
sitters, employee, people, pay, business, contractor, hire, state, job, hour, payroll, pet sitters, taxes, minimum wage, pet, talking, clients, obligations, workers, control
SPEAKERS
Kim Ottone-Tank, Collin
00:17
Hi, I'm Meghan. I'm Collin. And this is pet sitter confessional, and open and honest discussion about life as a pet sitter brought to you by time to pet and pet perennials.
Collin Funkhouser 00:30
Once we've decided that hiring is right for us, we've got our mindset, right, we have our why we've got all those things lined out. The next decision that we have to decide is whether to hire an employee, or to bring on an independent contractor. While they may sound very similar, the distinctions are very real. And there are use cases for both of them. So we're really excited to have Kim Ottone-Tank back on the show she was previously on episode 153. Today, she talks about the ins and outs of what are the differences between an employee and an independent contractor and why you would use one over the other. Now let's get started.
Kim Ottone-Tank 01:07
My name is Kim Ottone-Tank, and I've been in business in the San Francisco Bay area for 31 years now. I live now, for the last five years, I've lived out of the area two hours away, and I manage my business mostly remotely. But I do rely heavily on my employees for that reason. So that having an employees continues to be a huge part of my business, especially now. Yeah, well, you've been received, owning your owner of apron strings.
Collin Funkhouser 01:39
And you hired your first employee back in the mid 1990s.
Kim Ottone-Tank 01:44
Yes, in 1996. I had been in business for six years.
Collin Funkhouser 01:48
And so what what was it about that time that made you decide this is the time I need to hire? Well, I
Kim Ottone-Tank 01:55
had been working constantly for six years, seven days a week, it just when you have a pet sitting business and you do a good job work seems to explode. And I am terrible at saying no. And so I mean, in this business, if you want to have any time off at all, you have to either know how to say no. Or you have to get some help, because the business will be constant. There's no such thing as days off, that just happened organically. Although I will tell you COVID COVID created one day, we've had one day in the last I think around 25 years or so we finally got a day with zero visits. But it didn't even happen until this last March. I don't know what happened to stars online. It was just weird. And I just felt like something was completely out of whack. But so you know, we've had we've had visits scheduled every day for many, many, many years. And so if I had wanted to do all the work myself, Well, I would have never gone anywhere or done anything besides pet city. That first six years was a busy time for me because I had young children. And I knew that my life was all about the commitment to raising them. And I as a mom, I was very busy. But I also was running a business that has a lot of that same qualities. You can't just put it aside and decide you're not going to do it today. Just like you can't with motherhood. So I started thinking, you know, I've got to do something because I don't see doing something else I was enjoying the flexibility I had working around my husband's hours. And I didn't see choosing another career anytime soon. Well, apparently, you know, that was 25 years ago, I haven't chosen another career, I'm still doing this. And the reason is largely because I got help. And it was a scary thing. It was not in the plan whatsoever when I first started, which is why when I hear people say that I was thinking you might change your mind, because that's what I said to
Collin Funkhouser 04:03
well, and as you said, part of that scary process of bringing people on to help is is also knowing how to delegate to them. And I think that's something that you've had to grow and learn more about,
04:14
Oh, yes.
Kim Ottone-Tank 04:16
It was a real struggle. I hired my first employee knowing I needed help, but I didn't know what to do with him. And just started, you know, have every once in a while I'd have them go do a visit and I I just really had to learn how to delegate and it grew over time. As I became more in need of help, I managed to assign work and pick people to do it. For example, I hired in 96 I didn't know I was gonna have child number three at the time I hired I had her in late 97 and there was a need there. I had to go to the hospital have the baby and I had people working that week or two For three more weeks for me while I stayed home. And so that taught me a lot. But I was still in the early stages where I would ask my employees, you know, if they could do a job, it was pretty inconvenient. It's changed me so much over the years, because now I just assign all my work. I don't ask people about every job that comes in. So the delegation, the amount of work that I put into delegating work is so much less than it was in the very beginning. And it was just a learning process. You know, how do I assign work? Who is going to work when? How are we going to set up the schedule, it was
05:37
all
Kim Ottone-Tank 05:38
very gradually, it took me years to learn that. And I like to think now that, you know, I do talk to a lot of people who are hiring for the first time, and I like to think now that from what I've learned, I can help them speed up that process. It doesn't have to take years. I'm just really slow learner. Sometimes when it comes to things like that, you know, the business is my baby. It's very important to me. And I know everyone has that, that feeling about their business. But it delegation, you know, it can be something that that can be learned. It just took me a long time.
Collin Funkhouser 06:15
Well, and I think part of that, too, is something I know you do is you delegate by day of the week. Well, I think many people also try and delegate by work area or service area, what what's kind of the thinking behind how you manage that.
Kim Ottone-Tank 06:31
That's correct the Well, there are a couple of different reasons I aside by day, I have fallen into Well, it's been quite a while we've been doing it this way, my sitters work set days. And because I want them all to have at least two days off a week, it gives us a little bit of wiggle room if I need them on a six day in California on the seventh day, you go into overtime pay, and I try to avoid that. But the biggest reason I try to avoid more than that many days in a row is simply because people need a break. Oh, well rested. petsitter is a happy and productive petsitter. So I like to assign by days and that way the sitters know in advance what days they're going to be working. So if they want to plan a social life, they know that, you know, I'm off on Wednesday and Thursday, every week or Saturday and Sunday, and I can plan and I expect to receive a schedule on the other five days. So I don't really have to ask are you available Monday morning, because Kim, I have someone who works for me named Kim is on the schedule every Monday through Friday mornings. So it takes away having to ask her if she needs to be off, she will request the time off. But But if I don't hear that they have requested the time off, then I know I can schedule them. And I put them on the schedule and then they see their schedule. So it's pretty easy for me because I have people expecting to work certain shifts. And the reason I can schedule this way by day rather than by area is we have a service area that theoretically any of our sitters could do any of the work. It's it's not an incredibly small service area, let you know, it's hard to define the center of it. Now I don't live there anymore. But it's like from my old house, I would say it was maybe five to seven miles in any direction from my old house. And it's possible for one sitter to handle a job on one end of the territory and go to the other end, I prefer not to it's a lot of time in the car and driving. But if they had to they could do it. And I'm kind of the default, when it comes to crazy schedules. If I'm in town working, I'll go anywhere, because I can make myself do anything. But with my sitters, I try to cluster the work to make it easier. And also, you know, it's more efficient to pay people I pay by the hour, and the less time they're in the car between jobs, the more work they're able to do on a per hour basis. And I save money that way. So I do try to cluster the areas that is true, but again, my service area is set up so that if someone had to they could do all of the work and and I will say that with COVID everything you know came into play like that. When when I used to have 20 visits in a morning and maybe three main areas. I could have three sitters doing that, but when it got down to two visits in the morning, and they were on opposite ends of the territory and I needed them covered then I simply have one sitter do them. It costs me more in transportation costs. But it's, it's, it's the cost of non efficiency, I try to be as efficient as I can all the time. But every once in a while that's gonna slip through the cracks. And you don't not do work because you know, you you're making less profit that day he just do it and, and try to avoid that situation in the future.
Collin Funkhouser 10:19
And part of that it sounds like is, you know, you're you are able to control the schedule and assign you know, I think that's a really powerful word when we're talking about hiring. And I think one of the differences here is we're talking about hiring, but we're not, we haven't really talked about who we're hiring. And so that eternal question of hiring an independent contractor versus an employee. So I'd love for you to kind of line out what some of the major differences are between those when you're looking to hire?
Kim Ottone-Tank 10:51
Yes, a lot of people when they're discussing this subject will say, well, it's so complicated, because there's no one sentence written anywhere, to define quickly the difference. And there are some gray areas, when it comes down to small specific things. However, in my mind, it's very clear to me, the difference between an employee and a contractor is this, an employee is someone you hire to work on your team, but you can train and supervise a contractor is someone who is running their own business that you're borrowing to work in yours. They are a separate business entirely. And that's why there are so many differences in payroll and how you treat them. Because they're really completely different entities.
Collin Funkhouser 11:47
Yeah, really thinking about the control that you're able to exert over them. Because if they're their own business, right, you can't tell them to do certain things, if they have their own operating procedures and way of doing the business.
Kim Ottone-Tank 12:01
That's right. I mean, I, I like to use the plumber reference a lot. Like, if I'm calling a plumber to come to my house, he is going to provide all his own tools, he's going to tell me when he's going to show up, he's going to tell me what he charges, and I'm not going to sit there and tell him how to do the job. And that's really what using another business is, if this plumber guy worked for me all the time, you know, say I had a lot of plumbing problems, if he was at my house all week long on a regular basis, and I was telling him exactly what to do and giving him the tools. The IRS would probably say, you know, I think that's your employee, because he's there a lot and you're supervising and you're controlling, you're probably even at that point telling him when to show up. That's an employee relationship. And I know that sounds like a bizarre example. But that's really kind of what what it's all about. The reason we don't withhold taxes with a contractor is solely because they are their own business. And it is presumed that they are filing all of their own income taxes and self employment taxes through their own company. That is the only reason it's it's not set up as a different way to hire people. That's easier. If it were only because it was easier that people use contractors, well, then everyone would use contractors. You know, the people who work at the grocery store would all be contractors, if it's all about just making things easier. It was all because we don't want to do payroll taxes. Nobody would do payroll taxes, I'm not a masochist. I don't really want to do payroll taxes, but I do it because that is what is entailed in having an employee. Yeah. So it's, it's something everyone needs to consider when they're really sitting down to decide because this will change the entire focus of your business once you hire. And depending on the status of the people that are working for you, it will dramatically dictate exactly how you run things.
Collin Funkhouser 14:20
Have you heard about time to pet dog from bad to the bone pet care has this to say time to pet has made managing my team and clients so much easier. Our clients love the easy to use app and scheduling features and our sitters love being able to have all of their information organized and easily accessible. My favorite feature is the instant messaging by keeping conversations on time to pet we are able to monitor our team and ensure nothing ever falls through the cracks. If you are looking for new pet sitting software, give time to pet a try. listeners of our show can get 50% off the first three months by going to time to pack.com forward slash confessional you also Talk about why it's important to use the correct terminology when we're actually talking about our staff. And when we're talking to other people about them. What Why is that?
Kim Ottone-Tank 15:10
Yes, that's, that's pretty important. Because if you're talking to a client and say you, you know, you can call your sitters, whatever you want to call them. Pretty much anything, but I wouldn't call a contractor or an employee. For this reason, if you if you're talking to your client about how things are done, and anything about training, or insurance or the responsibility of those that are in your business, if you use the term employees, well, I'm going to send one of my employees, you just sort of let it slip, you know, no big deal, right?
15:43
Well,
Kim Ottone-Tank 15:44
when the client hears employee, it conjures up, someone on your team who is receiving training from you, is completely insured by you, not necessarily by themselves. They're going to assume they're covered with workers comp insurance. And they're going to make some assumptions that will cause them not to ask you clarification questions, they probably won't say, Well, what happens if someone is hurt at my home, and they're injured on the job? What are my responsibilities, if they think that you have employees, they're probably going to assume you're covered because in almost every state, you are required to carry workers comp, on your sitters. And for those who don't know, workers comp is a coverage that covers your employees if they are injured on the job. So your clients can get an impression that you have more control and you have more responsibility than you actually do. It's if you're using contractors, they are their separate business, which, you know, most of most pet sitters covered have insurance that covers either Iczer employees that worked for them. The reason that icees are encouraged to have their own business is really to, to show that they are in business for themselves. It's it's another indicator that they are not misclassified. But anytime you have a contractor relationship, the company can say, well, it's, you know, this happened, it's on my contractor's watch. And so you have to talk to my contractor about their insurance. So it's sort of automatically opens up that there can be two different companies you're dealing with, because you are dealing with two different companies, where if someone's an employee, it's going to all of it, the the buck stops here at, you know, my desk, because I am responsible for everything they do on the job. And that's I take it very seriously. But I'm also happy to have that responsibility. Because it is, it's very comforting to my clients,
Collin Funkhouser 17:45
personally, that can feel a little a little intimidating, right of going, Oh, I mean, it really does all stop with me. Right?
Kim Ottone-Tank 17:58
Yes, and you know, but that's business, it's like, we have to put on our big girl pants and, and deal with it. Because I've always said that, you know, petsitting is a relatively easy business to start. I mean, we can all put out a shingle pretty quickly, you know, nowadays, it's like all about, okay, go get your insurance, if you need a business license. And, you know, if you no animals at all, you're probably ready to go. But once you start hiring people, it's really different. You have to become a business person, because you're affecting other people's lives. It's not just you, when it's you, you know, it's just you and you, Oh, you didn't pay your estimated taxes on time, and you get a penalty or whatever, it's just you. But when you have people working for you, and you make some major mistakes, it can affect their lives. And I think it's the responsibility to be a real business person. One other thing I wanted to mention about using the correct terminology, is that can also be when you're hiring people to you need to not give the impression, they're going to be an employee, because they will have misconceptions about the job when they find out, you know, they have to sign a contract and that they really need to take care of all their tax issues, that they may not have all the protections that an employee would have as far as workers comp.
19:14
And lastly, I
Kim Ottone-Tank 19:15
just want to mention one thing, I see it on the forums a lot. You know, I'm a member of various petsitting forums, and I do enjoy answering questions about staff. A lot of times people will post a question, and they won't say whether their staff as an IC or an employee, and I will tell you that about 90% of the time, I can't answer the question unless I know which status they are. Because Because the answers are almost always different. If it's a training question, and they're talking about I see as well, you're gonna have to step lightly, you can't really train them. If it's a scheduling question, if it's a calling out sick question, if it's a time off question, All of those answers are going to be different for an IC versus an employee, nearly all of them, because that's how different those statuses are.
20:11
So if
Kim Ottone-Tank 20:12
you know that's why using the correct terminology, when people come on and ask questions, it's really important to say right off the bat, some people say, well, who, those of you who have Iczer employees how you do this, and I need to know which one, even coming down to job interviews, you know, employees have legal protections that ICS do not. So there are certain questions you can ask, you cannot ask an employee, whereas if they're an IC, it's really just a conversation between the two of you negotiating a business deal. So I'm feeling really strongly about that as
Collin Funkhouser 20:44
well. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of why it's important to know the terms. And I think even many people who I see posting as well, they might not even understand the difference of who they actually have going out into the field for them or think they have one thing, but they're actually treating them like another. So what are some of the advantages of having an employee over and against bringing on an independent contractor for your business?
Kim Ottone-Tank 21:08
Well, I think there are many, many advantages. And let me just say that if you want to go and find out what the criteria are, where you live this, you know, the United States is a wonderful place, every state gets to make their own rules about just about everything. So some of these things are state specific. I mean, it's crazy, because what goes in what, you know, people in California have different overtime laws in other places, I mean, it's just a, it's just a barrel of fun. But when you want to figure it out, there's different criteria, there's different tests of what constitutes an independent contractor versus an employee. And, and I won't go into you know, where all of them are. But one of them that's becoming more and more popular with the states is ABC test, which is a simplified, very simplified version of how to tell. And it's very, it's really somewhat strict. But all of the tests, one of the key factors is the element of control. And control is kind of a vague word, what is control mean? And so that's where some of the interpretation comes in control can be anything from the training aspect, telling them how to do the job telling them when to do the job, that sort of thing. How much supervision, are you monitoring them? I mean, there are many ways you can interpret control. For example, a lot of the the app, the petsitting, databases have tracking software, allowing one to track their Iczer employees. And I'm sure that I read one ruling on a state of Missouri incident where the fact that the ICS were tracked on the software led them to believe they had too high of an element of control for them to be tuned true contractors. So control is one of the biggest issues of all, wow. And that is really the first prong in the ABC test. Just like there's the burello test. There's, there's the economic realities test, there's all kinds of ways to determine. And every state can look at this differently. But like I said, on ABC test, the first prong is control. And unless they can prove that someone has complete control, they will not be considered a contractor the be prom is is this the core work of their business, a true contractor should not be doing the core work of your business. Well, if you're a pet sitter, the poor core worker, your business is petsitting. So for those states that go strictly by that, that use that be Prop, that's a problem. a contractor is in that case, if we go back to the plumber, contractors, that plumber that comes to your petsitting office to fix your plumbing, or that writer who does a blog for you a couple times a year or someone who writes an employee manual. But those are all people you can contract with. But people who do petsitting are employees. So that's what the B prong talks about. And then the C prompt talks about that they really need to be an independent established business. And in most cases, they're not referring to someone who you hire and say, Okay, well, now we're gonna set you up with the business and go get you a business license so that I can call you a contractor. It's not like that they do actually look back to see if they've already established themselves previous to working for you, as their own separate business and offering their services out to the public. This is where it gets kind of scary when I see a lot of questions online about well, how can I keep my contractor from working for other companies or doing work on their own? And the answer is, you can't Cuz you would never tell another business where they can work or what they can do with the rest of their time. And I think some people are somewhat shocked by that, because they didn't do their research and I feel bad for them. Because you it's a whole can of worms that they didn't realize they had?
Collin Funkhouser 25:21
Well, I think I think that comes with a lot of frustrations that come when people are trying to hire have they get frustrated, that the person that they hired isn't doing what they expected or isn't doing these certain things, or meeting these certain expectations. And a lot of that may boil down to they hired the wrong kind of person, they hired an independent contractor versus an employee, and they don't have that kind of control. And so they're left going, Oh, man, I want control. How do I do this? And like legally, no, well, you actually can't and you're kind of stuck with what you have.
Kim Ottone-Tank 25:54
You can't Yes, you you. And, and, and it's funny, because one of the things that people talk about as well, I don't have employees, because I've heard they're really hard to get rid of and, and you can, you know, go You have to go through all this process and everything. And actually, I don't know, I see it kind of the opposite. And I'm in an at will state so I can basically fire anybody for any reason other than a discriminatory action. And yet, with a contractor, you have a contract. So I don't think people realize this, you can't just say, oh, you're done with this job. I don't like how you're doing it, you're fired. Actually, most of the time, you have to fulfill the contract. And there are specific things in the contract of whether or not that person will be terminated from the job. And it's usually a contract. So usually, like on a time or a project basis, whereas an at will employee, I if I'm not happy, I can say you're out of here. I mean, I have fired three people in 3025 years. And it was just that's it was quick, Kitty and over with very quickly. I'm always prepared, you know, for any kind of, you know, I have an employment attorney that I fortunately have not had to use in a very serious way. He's advised me, but I haven't had issues with that. And I know going back to what the advantages of the employees are, is I can direct and control how the work is done. And if I don't like it, I can sit down and talk to them about it and guide them. It's, you know, yes, having employees, I have to pay them for everything they do. And even if they do a lousy job, and even if they break things on the job, I end up paying for it. That's where we go back to the buck stops here. Whereas a contractor can show profit or loss, they can be responsible for their losses. And if they don't make a profit on that certain job, that's really not your problem.
27:49
However, say good.
Kim Ottone-Tank 27:54
But I can sit down and have disciplinary meetings with an employee, whereas a contractor, you're only really control, you're only able to control the
28:03
outcome
Kim Ottone-Tank 28:04
of the job, which always kind of cracks me up. Because what does that mean that the animals are alive when you got home, that's the outcome of the job. Yeah. I don't know. But with an employee, I can control I can step in, if it's problematic, I can discipline them and give them warnings. And I can offer training and support to improve them and to, to, and I can provide training, whereas the contractor, you're not doing that they're they're supposed to come to you as a skilled professional. That's why you're hiring them because they are a professional with their own business, and you're hiring them for their skills. Whereas an employee, I can take someone off the street and train them and say, you're going to be my next great pet sitter, and they just might be. So there is a huge difference. And I think when you make the choice on who you're going, what status you're going to go with, it's really important to look at what your goals are, I think you should choose your status based on the goals of your business, and then deal with the tax repercussions that come from that rather than picking a status because it's easier tax wise, and then having to mold your business to fit that. Because one way you have the business that you truly want, and you're going to deal with those payroll taxes and stuff. The other way you got the tax situation that you want, but you're having to compromise on your business ideals just to fit that. So it's all about your choice. It's very important choice to make. I mean, employees, you can build a team. What a lot of people don't realize is that if you have contractors It can be a red flag to have them on your website. because technically, they should have their own website for their business and be promoting themselves. If you're going to show your team of sitters, you have to realize that that heavily looks like they have the type of commitment that would be for employees. And I know we haven't really talked about it much. But one of the big problems with using contractors is there is such a thing as a misclassification audit in the States, like us to have employees, and because it gives them greater control over collecting those taxes. I'm not saying that contractors don't pay their taxes. But it's a little looser system, when you have an employer taking out the taxes, and they know that they have to do everything correctly, or the IRS may take a look, they're going to do it correctly. And based on a certain
31:05
guideline,
Kim Ottone-Tank 31:07
whereas if you pay a contractor, you know, hopefully, they'll they'll pay their their taxes, but you don't know that they are. And I realized, well, that's not my problem and all that. But I'm just using that as a reason why the state's like the employee model. before and I think that has come to the forefront. You know, with COVID. Everything changed for the first time contractors could file for unemployment, right. But the companies that they were working for were not paying into the system. Whereas companies like mine, and others sitter's us employees, we have been paying into the unemployment system. So if we had to collect our employees had to collect, at least we had been putting in some of that money. So it's been a real strain on the system. And what it has done is given the states a lot of information on who is working as a contractor, and who is not. And I have read cases where they are using that information to conduct audits to be sure there is a true contractor relationship. And so it's scary, because I've known a number of sitters, who, but not at pway, prior to COVID, who've been audited, and lost their case, and they were deemed to have employees, not contractors, and they had to pay back penalties, taxes, and it can be in the 10s of 1000s of dollars. So we haven't even talked about the perception that employees are cheaper. That's I mean, excuse me that contractors are cheaper that I can tell you, if you lose an audit, it's not a it's gonna make up for everything you've saved, quote, saved over the years if you have to pay $75,000 in fees, and I know people who
32:59
have so.
Kim Ottone-Tank 33:02
And I don't want to come at this from fear, no one should choose something over fear. But it's a very real concern. Because if you have employees, they are never going to come after you and say you need to switch. If you have contractors, they might, and you might pass an audit in 2017, and then lose an audit in 2019, because you had a different auditor, who wasn't in a good mood that day. And I I've heard of cases where things like that have happened. So the safe way is to have employees. And I think that the way that most sitters look at their business. Let me back up a little bit. When people hire for the first time, the biggest thing I hear them say is I'm afraid to give up control of my business by having someone helped me. And so I find it shocking, I guess that the industry standard for many years appeared to be using contractors. I don't know if it was because people weren't truly aware of the differences. But anyone who wants control, that's an easy answer. You need to have employees. So yeah, I don't find them to be more expensive. My payroll costs when I take into account what the wages are, what my payroll taxes and everything. On top of that my workers comp and paying mileage. I generally am paying less than a lot of people are using contractors, a lot of them pay 60 to 70%. I'm actually under 60%. And I'm not talking about just wages, I'm talking about everything. Hmm. Well, so it's all on the numbers and structuring it correctly. And I think if more people were familiar with the numbers and had helped with the numbers, they would figure out that they can manage it and still make a profit.
Collin Funkhouser 34:59
Yeah. That's a common question. And I know that one that even Megan and I kind of turn over of, Okay, well, I'm feeling we're feeling really, really busy, it'd be nice to hire somebody. But how do I make those numbers work? Do I always need to raise my current prices to still remain profitable and still bring somebody on?
Kim Ottone-Tank 35:22
That's a really good question. And that depends on a lot of factors. What's interesting is that the minimum wage, and I know it's all changing, we're gonna see what happens the next few years, but in most parts of the country, it's 725. In California, it's 13. If you have under 25, employees, 14, if you have over and in certain counties, it is 15. and above,
35:44
I don't know,
Kim Ottone-Tank 35:45
I'm gonna knock on wood. I don't know why my county is not one of the higher ones, because it's where I service is fairly affluent. But you have a wide variation there. So and then you have a wide variation of fees across the country. So the answer is, it's it's going to depend, it depends on your fees in relation to the market in which you are, and it's going to depend on what your minimum wage is now, now,
36:10
I bring
Kim Ottone-Tank 36:11
up minimum wage not to suggest that someone only pay minimum wage, but it is the starting point, you can't go below you go that or above. So someone who were the minimum wage of 725 has a lot of room, they can offer jobs that are well over a minimum wage, where it's close round 15, you don't have quite as much wiggle room to pay more. But it's all about the numbers it's assessing, you take your minimum to see what's the what's the minimum that I can pay someone, let's just pretend for a second that nobody cared whether it was minimum wage or not. And then you need to look at your numbers in your state MC where you are with those, those of that other stuff you have to tack on, we all have to tack on 7.65% for our half of Social Security and Medicare, then the rest is kind of like, well, in California, I have a certain percentage for unemployment insurance. That's gonna vary with the state, I can tell you what mine is, but it's going to be different for you. There are different little taxes that come with each state. And then I like to figure out even though I pay my workers comp separately from my payroll, it doesn't go through my payroll company, but I tack that percentage on. Currently mine is only three. So under 3%, which I'm really happy. Because once upon a time it was close to 15%,
37:33
which is ridiculous.
Kim Ottone-Tank 37:34
Yeah. So that's another number that has to be factored in. So I won't get into all the different little things that are going to go into that number. But I like to say it's usually around 20% of your wages. Sounds like a lot,
37:49
but
Kim Ottone-Tank 37:53
not really, if you look at it this way. On let's say you were paying somebody $8 an hour 20% is $1.60. So then you have $9.60 for an hour. Now again, I'm not suggesting someone only paid minimum wage, but when people talk about that you can't possibly make a profit. I'm just using this as an example. What's it's a little known fact that if you pay close to or at minimum wage, you really do need to pay mileage on top of that for your sitters, because it has to do with own again, and I'm not an attorney. I've just obviously I've just done a lot of research on this. And there was this dominoes ruling A few years ago, where the Domino's Pizza deliveries were making minimum wage, but they were figuring out that they were spending a few dollars an hour driving. And so that caused them to dip below minimum wage. If it was they were not earning minimum wage once they paid for the cost of the travel at work. We're not talking about the commuting back and forth to the pizza place. We're talking about the delivering of the pizzas.
38:58
So
Kim Ottone-Tank 39:00
Domino's lost that they had to pay them more money to compensate them for their mileage.
39:04
So
Kim Ottone-Tank 39:07
the nice thing about mileage reimbursements, if they are done correctly and accounted for properly and documented, they are reimbursements they're not taxable. So I always tell everybody, if you're going to pay say $10 an hour and then you decide Well, I better cover the mileage, I'll pay them $15 an hour because it's, you know, maybe they're going to spend $5 an hour, it's far better to pay them $10 with a mileage reimbursement because you will save taxes they will save on taxes. It depends on what state you're in. I save on workers comp on that amount. I don't know that that is true of everywhere. I don't want to I'm sorry if I'm getting into too much detail, but these are the kinds of things that scare anybody off this is the kind of things you just have to know it's not difficult once you gather the information.
40:00
So,
Kim Ottone-Tank 40:01
so let's say you're paying $8 an hour and you have your taxes and workers comp, bring it up to 960. And then let's say you figured out that it's around the, they're driving around six miles every hour it right now the mileage reimbursement for the federal is 56 cents, that's a little over $3. So you're up to 1260 an hour. And say you charge $20, a visit, and you figured out that they're doing about a visit and a half an hour. So you're at $30 an hour, the gross and you're only spending 1260. Now, you know, you're probably going to pay your people more, but in that instance, but I'm just saying that's not even 50%. So that's just an example of the numbers, how it can work. Not you do not necessarily have to pay by the hour. It's that may be state dependent. I have, after many years of trying all different ways decided that that is what works best for me. You can certainly break everything down by visit, but you still have to make sure you meet minimum wage. So if you're guessing how much time it takes to travel, but your sitter gets stuck in traffic for a half an hour, and you're paying them a flat rate per visit, you know, they probably won't notice you may not notice. But technically you might have gone under minimum wage. So that's just something to be aware of. It doesn't happen very often. But you need to be aware. Also, some states now are doing mandatory sick pay. And in California, it's been that way for about five years, I think,
41:51
where
Kim Ottone-Tank 41:52
everyone is eligible for a certain amount of paid sick time. They accrue one hour of sick time for every 30 hours worked. So that's actually another thing to factor in, I figured out how many cents per hour, you know, average that's going to be included in. But the reason I bring this up now is because the way they track that sick time is hourly, it's based on the number of hours, you can't just tell your bookkeeper. Well, they did 14 visits this time figure out you know how much sick time they accrued. They need to know the hours that they were and and California as well, they are they want you to have records of when your employees are working. They want hourly records. I've never been asked for them. But I know they do. So I have to track the hours anyway. So it just makes sense to pay by the hour. And it relieves a lot of the stress as far as what how do I pay them for errands? How do I pay them for meet and greets where I'm not charging the client. If I'm paying a flat rate or a percentage, then I have to sit down and make some decisions on how to pay them. Whereas my sitters just, you know start at say 10 o'clock finish at 1230 if they're my midday person, and I pay in there for two and a half hours if I asked them to run an errand in between, well, that's all part of the clock. So for me, it's it's it hasn't made it easier. But I've but I know I'm doing it right. I did payroll last night, because I have a crazy date talking to you. I had another zoom call. And I'm like, Oh, it's late. I gotta do payroll. Well, it used to take me five minutes now takes me 30 minutes, not that big of a deal. And I like the way that it's being done. I feel good about it. Yeah, my sitters are happy with the way that they are being paid because I think people understand hourly, because that's how most of the world works.
Collin Funkhouser 43:56
Yeah, it well, it is it is what we're more used to. And I know payroll, that just I mean, just that word is going to send shivers up people's spines right now listening to this. Is it I know it's 30 minutes? Is it? Is it really all that scary?
Kim Ottone-Tank 44:10
Not at all. And I will say okay, the 30 minutes is gathering is adding up their hours checking against our app to you know, make sure it all matches. And I sent it to a payroll company. So I'm not the one actually plugging in the hours and deducting the taxes, but that if I had a program to do that wouldn't take very much longer. I just use I use a bookkeeping service because when it comes to sending those taxes in, and as the as my business grew and the numbers got bigger, I wanted it to be done correctly. Like I think I mentioned last time, when you make a mistake and payrolls $100 and you didn't, you know, send in $7. That's one thing. But when it got up to you know, many 1000s of dollars over the course of a year. I didn't want to make mistakes with my filing. So I use a professional and it's very easy. I always tell people, though, when you start off, especially if you say only have one employee, I always encourage everybody to learn to do it themselves, because you will have an understanding of where your money is going. That's really important. You know, don't rely on someone to say, Well, I need, you know, you've got a $400. Know, tax, withdrawal coming up for UI and and you're like, well, how did that happen? If you don't understand what it helps you to plan better your payroll, if you, you know, again, that goes back to allowing your 20% I mean, I, I think a simple thing to do is, you know, when you, when you take in money, have a separate payroll account, transfer it over allow for that 20%, or whatever your percent is going to be, and then you're going to always have the money to pay all that stuff. It's pretty simple,
Collin Funkhouser 45:49
that 20% that we're talking about here, adding to the wages, what all what other kind of obligations do we have for an employee? What is that 20% makeup, and what other things do do we need to be providing and doing for the employee, when we bring them on? Well,
Kim Ottone-Tank 46:05
we have to make sure that we take care of all of our legal obligations first, which is the withholding of their taxes. So the 7.65% is Social Security and Medicare, and the other half is taken out of their check, we take it out. So we have to set that aside. But it's money that their check was reduced by that amount, we have to file their income taxes, and then we have to do all of our any type of if your state takes out money for disability, or you're paying into unemployment insurance, so all of those those obligations. And it sounds so complicated, but really a bookkeeper can spend just a few minutes, you know, guiding you in the beginning to explain what all of that is, we have an obligation, you know, in most areas to cover them with workers compensation. Now in California, if you have one part timer, you have to have workers comp. Some states, if you have three employees that you meet the threshold for workers comp in Texas, you don't have to have workers comp, I think it's the only state. But I can't imagine sending people into houses without it, I always tell everybody, that is the one thing you do not want to skimp on. Because if you have a claim, you know, that's big enough, it can put you out of business. And it's the law. So you know, so. So there's that. So most of our obligations are those legal obligations, but also not just not just the tax part, but to follow Wage and Hour laws. So it's very important to become fully educated on the various aspects of your state, for example, actually prepared a friend and I prepared a course that we wrote about employees and independent contractors. And I listed some of the different things that you need to be aware could be a requirement, your state, for example, in California, we don't have a minimum shift law. So I can send somebody out for one visit, I'm not obligated to pay them for a certain amount of hours. I do believe there are some states that have a minimum shift law, and I'm not sure it was some state in the North East that had a three hour minimum shift law. And I was shocked. I thought, Oh, that's not great for pet sitters.
48:34
But it's
Kim Ottone-Tank 48:35
something that if you're in that state, I would call the state and Department of Labor and find out for sure, you need to be aware of when someone goes into overtime. So most places, it's over 40 hours in a week, California, it's after it's over 40 hours a week. But it's also after eight hours in a day. We have a reporting time pay, whereas if I tell you you've got four hours of work, but it gets canceled, then I need to pay you for at least two. But some people get confused that there's a two hour minimum shift law, it is not the same thing. It's all on the expectation of the worker, what they were told they were going to have income California, and I'm sure in some other states, but I don't think very many I need to research this. We have split shift laws, which is a big thing to take in consideration with pet sitters. Because if I send someone out for two hours of the morning and two hours at night,
49:31
then
Kim Ottone-Tank 49:33
long story short, I have to pay them for an extra hour. It's let I say long story short, because the long story is that if they make a certain amount over minimum wage throughout the course of the day, you can reduce that they credit that hours credited to any amounts that are paid over minimum wage so it can reduce it somewhat. You know, they just couldn't make it super easy. But I think they spend all day dreaming up to you know, how can we how can we drive on Are employers crazy? But so we have the split shift law, which you know, I pay when I'm, you know, sending someone out multiple times a day. And that is right up the alley of most pet sitters. And that's another reason why I do the scheduling, too, because I take into account, you know, it's much more efficient for me to have a morning person and a night person than to have somebody doing the split shifts all the time cost me a lot more money. And of course, then the the whole other Well, what about sending more than one sitter to a job? Well, we could talk about that another time. But I do that all the time. And my clients are used to that. So I, I won't sit and say, Oh, you know, it's going to work for everybody. But it works for us. We we look at all of those laws when we're scheduling sitters to be efficient. And but another reason I do that is because of just my sitter set schedules, they work certain shifts, they have an expectation of their job, which leads to higher satisfaction on the job, which guess what leads to higher employee retention. So it's all about now, I have a lot of theories with employee retention. And I think if you keep people happy, and give them a predictable schedule, where they're not like, Oh, I don't know, if I'm going to get called up and work seven days a week, this week or not at all next week, if it's a predictable schedule, they'll tend to stay longer, and they'll be more experienced. So my clients may see two or even three sitters on a job, say they're gone for two weeks, they probably have a weekend crew, and they'll have the am and the pm person during the week, they may see different sitters. But because those sitters are happy and stick around the next time they go away for two weeks, it's the same three people. Whereas I could promise you one sitter for two or three weeks, but they might be so burnt out by the time you go away next time that they don't work for me anymore, and it's somebody else. So there's a huge advantage of having, you know, retaining poise long time because you're more experienced, right? And who doesn't want that, you know, rather than a constant turnover? So, you know, there's no one way that's going to work for everybody. But over the years, I've found what works for me?
Collin Funkhouser 52:26
Well, in on that, you know, I'm sure people are listening, or have been doing reading and research in going well, you know, isn't an employee the right choice for every certain situation and circumstance in business? And so I did want to kind of pick your brain on that a little bit and kind of play both sides of this coin a little.
Kim Ottone-Tank 52:45
Right, right. A lot depends on where you are, I would say almost all the time, if you are in a state. I mean, it seems crazy to say that. But in California, I just wouldn't even recommend anybody hire a contractor even for, you know, occasional use. I think they there have been a lot of rulings lately. And they're making exceptions. They're changing things. But until we know for sure, I just caution people about that. So that's one of the states where it's, it's somewhat difficult if you are a business where you don't need help very often. And I mean, I like to cover your vacations or something like that. And you find that you are in a somewhat icy friendly state. And I don't really know how to define that exactly. Other than I would certainly talk to people in your state, and I would talk to someone at the Department of Labor, and get their take on that. If If you are in an icy friendly state, and you're going to use someone occasionally, absolutely, that's probably the way to go. Because there is a certain amount of setup to having an employee,
53:51
although most of
Kim Ottone-Tank 53:54
the expenses having an employee or based on percentage. So if you only use someone once in a while, then you're only paying all that other stuff once in a while. The only exception I've found and this can be a problem is the workers comp, because there may be a minimum, you know, when it comes to reporting Social Security and Medicare, they don't come to you and say, well, you have to have a minimum of $1,000 a year or something like that. If you only have an employee for $100 a year, you got to send in, you know, your $7.65 and, and the same for your employee. But with workers comp, there may very well be a minimum. Like when I first hired my employee, it was $500 a year I'm sure it's more
54:37
now I don't know, but
Kim Ottone-Tank 54:40
so, it was a certain percentage, they were gonna charge me but if I only had a little bit of work for him, you know, maybe I wasn't even gonna have $500 in wages and I was gonna pay $500 Well, that's where, okay, it kind of doesn't make sense but Little asterisks there, it does make sense, if you're going to continue to hire, you have to start somewhere that first year, with your worker's comp setup, you may end up paying a huge percentage because of the minimum, but the next year, you're going to have that policy and you've got two or three people working for you, before you know it, you're paying well above that minimum, and your percentage may not be that high. So it's a cost of that it's the cost of the stepping stone to the next level, you can't get to two or three people till you hire the first one. And that first one, because of things like that may not be profitable. That's a case where if you're never going to hire beyond, say, one person, and you're only going to use them occasionally, and you're in an icy friendly state, by all means, that's probably the choice for you. But so many people start off hiring and once when they find out it works for them, you know, what do you know what we will now we need a second person because that person is asking for time off every so often, or we're getting busier because we can take more jobs, well, then you're growing. And when you're growing, I advise having a team of employees because you want to be able to direct and control them and have control over your business and have quality standards on on how it's done. You want to be able to train them, you you if you want them to say you want them all first aid trained? Well, I pay for that for my sitters, and that way I make sure it gets done. You know, rather than, you know, trying to find people with the qualifications,
Collin Funkhouser 56:29
right? Well, again, it gets back to that, setting those expectations for what you want out of the person that you're bringing on into your business. And if you don't have clear priorities, or a clear understanding of exactly because I think many people who are looking to hire actually do want a lot more control than maybe they're willing to admit or think would be, you know, beneficial to them or whatever. And, and so they start getting into this, this middle ground, and then they convince themselves well, I don't have to pay all of those taxes upfront. So it's cheaper. So I'll just go that route. And then and then look up, as you said, year to year three, adding people going, why can't I control anything white? You know, what's going on here?
57:09
Right? I
Kim Ottone-Tank 57:10
think you have to you have to force yourself to look at the long term. Am I just going to use somebody once in a while twice here when I go on vacation and never grow? Or am I gonna look to grow this business? And if you're going to grow it, it's, it's, you know, think about it, you're you're trying to grow it using other business owners? Is that a practical model? Well, for most people, no. You want to have control training, you want to be able to train the sitters to your quality standards, so that things are consistent. You know, I I'm going to, when I'm done here, I'm going to send a little email for a couple of reminders to my sitter, she, you know, don't forget to make sure you rinse out all of the cans and put them in recycling, I can do that. Those are my quality standards. And most of the time they do it. It's just you know, sometimes people need reminders. And if that kind of thing on a daily basis that we're doing all of the time, and if someone's a contractor, you know, that's kind of a fine line. And you're like, well, well, you know, how is anyone ever going to find out that I told my contractor to do this? Well, probably not. But what if that contractor decides that they have a dispute with you? People ask me, Well, how do people get caught? You know, no one's going to tell I've been so I traded my contractor. Well, that's all great as long as you get along great with your contractor. But if something goes wrong, they can report you. People get some of the ways people get audited are someone gets hurt on the job and and they go to the hospital and they sell them it was a work injury and the hospital, asked where you work and reports it to the state because they think it should be a worker's comp claim. And they find out there's no workers comp policy. And that can be a bugaboo. Or they file for unemployment, which previous to COVID you really couldn't do if you're an IC, and they look up the employer and they say, Oh, well, they're not paying into the system. Is this really a contractor relationship, but also someone who's angry with you can say to the state, you know, I don't think I was treated like a contractor. I think I'm really an employee. So it's just that's like I said, not to be looking at it from a point of fear. But these are things that you must be aware of. And a lot of it is your risk tolerance. I mine's really low. I don't I don't want to I don't want to worry about my sitters getting bitten by a dog. I mean, I do worry about things like that. But as far as the financial aspects, I mean, I just because I carry workers comp doesn't mean hey, how bad it go and go into that Lion's cage. No, but I mean, I really care about my staff. But knowing that financially, I've protected Yeah, should something like that happen. My big one big worker's comp claim wasn't a dog bite. I mean, we've never had a word of dog bite where anyone had to go in for care, which is knock on wood pretty good. It was slipping and falling on a rainy metal grate in the street. Getting the mail. Getting the mail is very dangerous. Let me tell you.
1:00:16
Yeah, yeah, it was it was a big thing.
Collin Funkhouser 1:00:20
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Kim Ottone-Tank 1:01:51
can't emphasize it enough to do some research with your state Department of Labor, whatever that may be. They're called all different things. In every state. In California, we have the well we have a Department of Labor, we also have Employment Development Department. And when I go to their website, just to give you an example, they have services for employers, and they put on new employer seminars, which is what I did, back in the back of the day, before I hired that first guy. I went and attended a seminar where they went over all of the obligations, all of the legal requirements about hiring, and they were pretty darn clear it needed to be employees, even back then. So the reason I say go to your State Department of Labor, is because that's the entity that will investigate you if there's a problem. So if you know that you're following what they told you, then odds are you're never going to, you know, not pass any kind of employment audit with them. Because they're the ones who gave you the information. A lot of people say, Well, my accountant said it was okay. Well, some accountants are up on this sort of thing. But that's not their expertise. They are their expertise is taxes. And they don't really have any risk. If you were if they gave you the wrong information and you get audited? Well, chances are it's just more billable hours for them. I hate to say that I don't think accountants are motivated that way. But they don't have
1:03:27
any
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:03:29
Can I say it's, it's not going to be on them, it's going to be on you. If If you make mistakes, and they're just handling the tax, not the legal end of it. So it's really important to go to your State Department of Labor. And I think it's good to talk to other people in your state, but I would call them and I know people probably don't want to do that, because they're probably going to hear what they don't want to hear. But might as well hear it now and get off on the right foot, then you find out later after you've you know have $100,000 of payroll that now you have to go back and pay penalties and taxes on because that's that is what can happen. So like I said, I always go to the people that are going to come You know, go after you if you get it wrong.
Collin Funkhouser 1:04:23
Right. And that's you know, as you said, as the buck stops with you as the business owner, and if you're the one bringing people on you need to understand your obligations to them understand the rules and regulations and the considerations to take into place for where you're going to be operating. And then operate in the best interest for not just for your business but for those people you have out in the field. Because you want them to be taken care of as well. Right. You don't want to be taking advantage of of them just to save a few dollars in taxes at the end of the day.
1:04:53
And it
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:04:54
yes taking advantage of them is never going to come back in a in a positive way in the future. I look at, you know, for me, my employees, it's not just about the legalities, I, I look at our relationship far more than they work and I pay them. I, I won't say like, we're a family, but I feel like that's kind of the culture is that we are a team of people who care about the same thing. And anything I can do to support them to make their workday better, to make sure they are appreciated. And we talked about this before I don't, I try not to get mad at them for things because I just, I've done everything wrong myself. I made every mistake in the book. So, you know, I was in town, I actually worked the last couple of days. And one of my sitters was supposed to return a key to the locker but she didn't. And I was on my way to a house and realize, you know, I, I can find the key and I had to meet up with her and her, she had to call her mom and have her leave the key behind a pineapple on her porch. And I went and got the key. And I, I could have been frustrated about it. And it's just it was a little annoyance. If it had been one of my employees, I'd be paying for them to go pick up that key. But you know, stuff like that happens. And she sent me an email. I'm so sorry, I did that. I won't do that again. And, you know, I'm like, you know, yeah, I would prefer the key go back to the locker when it should. But, um, you know, it, it worked out, because I got into the job, which is really, really the most important thing. You know, we all have little annoyances, but if the work gets done at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. So yeah, there are things that go wrong there annoyances, but I try to support her in a way that she knows, you know, she's not in big trouble. She She raised she's one of my youngest sitters I've ever had worked for me. And she recently sent me an email that she wants to become more involved on the back end of the business helped me with marketing and social media, and perhaps even training some of the sitters, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this, she wants to be involved in the business because she, for her, it's much more than a than a paycheck, she wants to be have a bigger role in the business. And I'm excited, because I thought that's, you know, she really loves it. So it's, there are so many wonderful people out there like her, you know, and my life has been enriched by knowing these people by having this work relationship with them. They bring so much to the table. And I'm just really proud of them how they perform as a team.
Collin Funkhouser 1:07:35
Yeah, that's, that's really powerful game when you start thinking of them as, as team members as valuable assets, as people with things to contribute to the business that's going to make you better, not just more profitable, but you as the business are going to be better at the end of the day because of them.
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:07:52
Exactly. And it's you know, everyone's you know, people think, Well, I'd like to find a clone of myself, Well, you know, everybody bring their unique talents. And I've had a sitter who I had a couple of dogs that didn't, I try not to take it personally, but just wouldn't bond with me. And they bonded with one of my sitters, so well. And I thought, wow, I'm so glad that I have her. Yeah, because clearly she had, you know, some connection with these dogs. And that's something that's not all that unusual. It's funny, we have a few cats here and there that take a dislike to certain people, I have one cat that does not like to my sitters likes everybody else. So that's one case where Okay, I do have to do some fancy scheduling around that sometimes. But for the most part, we don't have issues like that, but but most of the differences with the sitter, it's it's very positive, they, they they bring something special, to to each visit. And and I know it is hard to find people, especially right now, I think since the COVID and unemployment being readily available. But I do believe there are a lot of people out there. My last two hires last summer have been great. And I think they didn't have jobs for forces on unemployment. That might be the case. But there are definitely people out there. It's just a it's a struggle to find them. But there are many people out there that will that want to be part of your
Collin Funkhouser 1:09:26
team. And on that if somebody is looking to hire for the first time, and they are trying to figure out a path forward. What what are some what's some advice that you would give to somebody who's looking to diving in?
1:09:42
Well,
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:09:42
as I mentioned before, first I would you know, go just play around with your state Department of Labor website. I would spend some time on the forums but do you know, do understand that people come at you with different opinions and there may not always be The correct legal information. So take everything with a grain of salt. But it will get you a feel for people how people are talking about their staff. You know, there are plenty of books on hiring a lot of webinars, I would check out YouTube and all that, but specific to pet sitters. And of course, there are a lot of pets that are coaches these days, and some of them spend a lot of time on hiring. So that may be something to look into, if that's your personality type where you want to get your guidance that way. So you know, and if you have any mentors in the field, if you have other people who have hired staff in your local area, it is great to you know, I, if somebody calls me up and says, Well, I just have not too long ago, can I have coffee? But I'll buy you a coffee at Pete's, can I pick your brain for half an hour? I'm like, of course, because you know me, I can't shut up about it. I'd be talking about it anyway. But, uh, sure, bribe me. And I would do that, I would do that. I would like, Hey, can you you know, can I have you for an hour of your time? Can you please tell me about your experiences with this? Just every avenue, you can find. When I was first hiring, there were there were I couldn't find anybody that employees as pet sitters in California, but I did it anyway. And, and gradually, more people started to have employees. So but I love mentoring people about this very topic, because it's very near and dear to my heart. It's, you know, I just I couldn't have gone on this long without having a
1:11:45
team.
Collin Funkhouser 1:11:46
This has been a real pleasure. Thank you for coming on today and encouraging us the power of employees that it gives us control, consistency and predictability not just for ourselves, but also for our clients. And that at the end of the day, it's all about making a structure and building that team around us. That's going to make us better. We obviously did not cover all of the possible topics. And there's so much more out there. How best can people get connected with you and start picking your brain whether they bribed you with coffee or not?
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:12:26
Well, if they can find me, you know, via messenger, it's, you know, Kim otoni. Tank. I'm on Facebook. My email address is reservations. So that's reservation with an S at apron strings. online.com. I know that's hideously long. My website is apron strings, online, calm. So you can find me send me an email. I love to as I say it's it's my favorite topic. But then, you know, there's goats and there's other stuff, too. But I'm very passionate about employees. So yeah, I'm happy to help.
Collin Funkhouser 1:13:05
Yeah, go to new grandbabies and all sorts of exciting things. So Kim, Kim again, okay,
1:13:13
don't even get me started. Oh,
Collin 1:13:15
yeah. We got to close. closing it out. Sorry. I said the word will. Cam. It's been a real pleasure. As always, thank you so much.
Kim Ottone-Tank 1:13:24
Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure. For me.
Collin Funkhouser 1:13:27
We spend an awful lot of time trying to decide if we're going to hire or not hire, whether it's for us or whether we need to wait a little longer. But very few of us actually take the moment to step back and say, but who am I hiring? What am I hiring for? And that's why I really enjoyed my conversation with cam to break down the ins and outs of employee versus contractor to decide and understand what the advantages are and what our obligations as the employee are. That when we ask questions about hiring, we need to understand what we are trying to hire, whether an employee or a contractor how much control we need to have over the person that we are going to be bringing onto the team. Are we going to view them as an independent business? Or do we need them to be an integral part of our operations. There are places for both of them, but I like how Kim laid out the advantages and the disadvantages for both of them and how it's not a perfect fit in every situation, that it really takes understanding our state's laws, rules and regulations, and how we need our business to operate. that language is important when we are communicating not just to our clients, but then to those that we are hiring so that they fully understand exactly what we need, that we lay out those expectations early and we reinforce them often. We want to thank our sponsors tied to pet and pet perennial, we're making today's show possible. We also want to thank you for listening. And if you have hired an employee or a contractor, we'd love to hear how it went for You things that you've learned in recommendations that you would have for other pet sitters. Get in touch with us on social media at pet sitter confessional, head on over to pet sitter confessional.com. To check out past episodes. There's a contact form there. You can call us all different ways that we'd love to hear back from you. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. And we'll be back again soon.
