193: Reactive and Aggressive Dogs with Rene Smith
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Summary:
Reactivity and aggression in dogs can take many forms. From resource guarding to separation anxiety, as pet professionals, we should be mindful of the context and history of the pets we are working with. Rene Smith, owner of Street Dog Rehab, started off with a passion for dogs, but got in over her head. On her own road to recovery, Rene dove into training resources and is now dedicating her life to helping dogs have a second chance. Rene shares common signs of aggression, ways we can help clients and their pets through aggression, and why consistency is key. We discuss how to help dogs self-regulate and what it means to build a sacred bond between the pet and their owner.
Topics on this episode:
What is LEMA?
What is ‘aggression’?
Trigger stacking
Dogs and kids
Resources
Main takeaway: When in doubt, be consistent and know your limits for when to get help.
About our guest:
I grew up in a home where 3 Great Danes were my best friends. A few years after graduating from high school and joining the Army, I retired and had to find a new passion. I knew exactly where I belonged, back in the dog world.
I began fostering dogs and kittens for ACS, and through this, I realized that giving these animals another chance at a good life is what I was called to do. While saving these dogs, I found a new purpose. With each puppy, I became more interested in effective training methods for issues ranging from potty training to resource guarding. I could better assist them in being placed in new homes. Two years later, I completed my training certification with Animal Behavior College.
Today I have several mentors and trainers I aspire to be like: Destiny Valdes, Micheal Shikashio, Hannah Brannigan, and Trish McMillian to name just a few. I personally own several dogs with varying levels of human and dog aggression. As a mother to 2 toddlers I understand how difficult it can be managing all the family members can be and it is my passion to help every family I can.
I work hard to ensure my methods are up to date through my certification along with attending multiple seminars yearly. It is important when dealing with aggression to ensure no further damage is being done; while aggression can not be cured it can be managed. When new behaviors can be trained in place of the old they become more beneficial to your pup and your family in the long run. I'm here to help train on both ends of the leash to make sure the bond stays sacred between you and your four legged companion.
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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
Provided by otter.ai
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
dog, dogs, aggression, clients, pet, pet sitters, absolutely, people, leash, training, situation, walk, kids, stay, home, humans, behavior, corrections, talking, signs
SPEAKERS
Collin, Rene Smith
00:17
Hi, I'm Meghan. I'm Collin. And this is pet sitter confessional, and open and honest discussion about life as a pet
Collin 00:24
sitter brought to you by time to pet and pet sitters International. How do we go about dealing with aggressive dogs, as pet professionals, we can be put in many situations and have to understand their body language, their history and all the holistic aspects to what it means to care for them, to make sure that they're safe and happy in their forever homes. Today, Renee Smith, owner of St. Dog rehab, breaks down all of these aspects and two simple things that we can do to come alongside and partner with our clients to help make sure that they have a wonderful relationship with their pets. Let's get started.
Rene Smith 01:04
Absolutely. Hey, so I'm Renee. I'm a medically retired out of the army. I'm a mom, I've got two kids under the age of three. I have 13 personal dogs in my home that are in four packs that I crate and rotate all day long. And I've been trading for just over five years now. Wow. That's awesome. So how did you get started five years ago? Yeah, so I, I mentally retired out of the army. What do you do when you're in your early 20s, and you've retired already. So I went and started fostering dogs at the shelter, just bringing them in and doing my thing. And I was like, wow, this is cool. I want to be a service dog trainer. So I'm getting these dogs. I'm training them up, start getting in touch to pit bulls, you know, getting against the stigma. Let's train them up. Let's flip the script. And then I was this day changed my life. It changed the course of my training. I was home alone. 26 weeks pregnant. I had, like 12 dogs at the time, but I only had 10 out. And they all broke into a full on pack frenzy. So I had to break up 12 or 10 pitbulls biting all at once by myself pregnant. Wow. It was traumatizing. It was awful. And I wish I had just been taught what to do. Because I did everything wrong. I did everything wrong. I was so grateful. I was already in training. So I met with my mentor. The next week actually was the first time I met her. And I told her about the disaster I was living with and she helped me turn the corner got me into it turns out I had a knack for it. And here we are.
Collin Funkhouser 02:44
Well, you mentioned, sometimes it can feel like we're doing all of the right things until we've come across a scenario where it all just goes downhill and go so fast. So when you got connected with your, your mentor and who you are working with, how did you start addressing some of those those concerns that you had with them?
Rene Smith 03:06
Yeah, so the very first thing you do when you've got a for example, the high levels of aggression I had in my home is just separate them so they can't keep practicing being jerks. The first step and training aggression is get them to not be jerks, and then we can start making new behaviors. So that's why I broke out into multiple packs.
03:26
Sure. So So how would you describe your training methodology? broadly, how do you approach training dogs and working with their owners?
Rene Smith 03:35
Yeah, so my approach has changed over the years. My where I'm at and what is seem to be the most effective for the most people isn't Lima. Least intrusive, minimally invasive methods. Okay, so I'm not 100% are positive. I'm not 100% force free, believe some dogs need a correction. But I believe those corrections should be in a context where the dog is already proven to know what we're asking. And at the level that the dog needs. Right. So my favorite example is I've got a Rottweiler personal Rottweiler, you can tell her no and tap her with one finger and she will scream and hit the deck like you beat her. So she doesn't need a harsh correction. You know what I mean? I've got no business yelling at her. But my German Shepherd, he's comes from a working line. He needs a little up sometimes just to get it through his thick skull. So it really just depends on the dog and the corrections should be based on the individual but I'll always lead with treats
04:34
How do you screen that for dogs that you're working with or help an owner dis figure out where to fall on that spectrum?
Rene Smith 04:42
Yeah, so before I even start talking about corrections, I'm looking at the first thing I can reinforce. I had a case last week where the dog was actively trying to get me on initial greeting. That's how I usually walk into a home is the dog wants me and I look for the first thing I can reinforce, which is eye contact. I'm going to look at that dog while it's being full Cujo, and I'm gonna say yes. And I'm gonna throw a treat behind it over and over and over again until they just look at me without barking. And by the end of 10 minutes, that dog was sitting and taking treats for me.
Collin Funkhouser 05:15
So it sounds like it really it takes this attentive approach to really looking at the dog and not rushing to judgments, not how do you stay under control in those kinds of situations? Because I'm sure that could be pretty scary.
Rene Smith 05:30
Yeah, so a really big part of staying under control there is making sure that we've got levels of safety involved. So if I've got a dog with level three bites, meaning they've not only bitten somebody, but they've broken skin and left a puncture, right, those dogs on initial greeting or muzzled, and on a leash two levels of safety, just in case that way I can be confident in handling them. That way. I don't have to worry about a bite. Wow.
Collin Funkhouser 05:55
Yeah, no, that's a good point of doing a lot of these pre screening questions. And working like the work starts before you even come through the door. It sounds like so that you can actually be focused on the task at hand, instead of wondering, are you going to walk out of there? Okay.
Rene Smith 06:10
Absolutely. Especially for some dogs, they like to call take what I call the cheap shot, where as soon as you go to walk away, that's come up and get you in the blood. Those guys need to be on a leash. And I have to know the context. So before I even get a dog out, I talked with the owner for about an hour and a half to two hours before I'm even meeting their dog.
Collin Funkhouser 06:29
So we're talking a little bit here about dog behavior, specifically, signs of aggression in dogs. So how would you define aggression?
Rene Smith 06:40
Yeah, so I went ahead and looked it up in the dictionary just to have a solid place we're all coming from because I love to define our terminology. So aggression is hostile or violent behavior, attitudes towards another readiness to attack or confront, meaning the dog has some intent to harm, but not necessarily intent to maim. There's a difference in dogs. There's a difference between a dog barking and moving forwards versus a dog barking and moving backwards.
Collin Funkhouser 07:09
Yeah, reading that reading that kind of body language and trying to discern so what are maybe some commonly missed signs when people are looking at a dog? And that they misread it? For what the dog's trying to communicate to them?
Rene Smith 07:24
Yeah, there's actually a lot of these and they're quite fun for me to talk about. So the first big one is whale eyes. A lot of people they call them crazy eyes. It's where the dog's eyes open all the way and you see the whites around them. That's super common, especially in kids. They think it's so cute. They think it's fun. Look at these crazy eyes. And I'm like, no, that's not good. It's a sign of stress. tail wagging. Oh my gosh, I can't tell you how many people like he beat me. But his tail was wagging. Okay, but how was his tail wagging? That tail wag can mean everything the speed where it's sitting on their body versus their normal carriage. Their ears, oh my gosh, some dogs? Well, you can read as their ears. So if they're pinned flat back versus helicopter out to the side versus all the way forward. Eye contact hard staring basically anything stiff, should be a warning to us that something is up here.
Collin Funkhouser 08:23
Right? And again, making so what I'm hearing here is that in order to read these signs properly, we have to understand the context in which the dog is is living and some of their history. What kind of questions should pet sitters be asking about the pets history that can help inform them make better decisions and on the body language that the dogs telling them?
Rene Smith 08:45
Yeah, so context is everything right? Dogs don't generalize well. So even for me as a trainer before I walk in the door, I'm asking how does the dog do with the vet? How the dog does the vet can tell us a lot, right? The dog? How does the dog do if your friend were to take the leash mid walk? How does your dog do if we met outside versus inside? How did those things work? What happens if a friend walks up when your dog in the crate? Those types of questions?
Collin Funkhouser 09:12
Yeah, cuz many times as pet sitters, we may only see a dog one time, or the first time that we're taking care of a dog is the only time that we're we've ever seen them. And that whole situation, you know, thinking about this is now going well, I actually don't know this dog at all. I'm a complete stranger that to the dog and the dog is a complete stranger to me. We need to back up a few steps and ask some really good questions before we can give the best care possible.
Rene Smith 09:40
Yeah, absolutely. And like if they have no idea, right? They've never left their dog with somebody. Ask them if they're willing. Like if you're a little bit concerned if you've got your little human hackles up, right and we're like, oh, I don't know about this. Ask him to take her to a friend's house and video chat you and then then leaves you can see what the dog does with their friends. Ah,
Collin Funkhouser 10:01
yeah, I you know, I think that that we find ourselves in those situations where, especially now where many owners have they got pets through 2020, or they don't put them in normal and other situations, I can't tell you how many clients we've had who've been like, well, they're just they're our dogs, we don't take them anywhere or do anything with them. So I don't know how they're going to react. So I like that idea of going well, could you put them in this situation? Obviously taking safety precautions and doing minimal stuff as possible. But you know, your safety has to come is really important in these scenarios, too.
Rene Smith 10:34
Absolutely. And the other thing is always remembering, we can say no, if you feel funny about it, just say no, that is just okay. That's fine. Right?
Collin Funkhouser 10:44
Well, and so, you know, on this sometimes, you know, we get in a situation where we didn't ask those questions. We didn't put these precautions into place. We've already said yes. And we're in a situation where this dog is being actively, it's actively telling us that they're not okay with us in the house, I have been in many of those situations, what what advice would you give to somebody who finds themselves staring at a dog? That's really not okay with them being next to them?
Rene Smith 11:11
Yeah, so once again, it depends, it depends on the context, if it's in your own home, or their home, for the example that you brought up, or we're walking into the client's home, I would definitely recommend that you're coaching your clients to keep the dog contained in some way, in a crate in another room, so you're not walking in the front door, right? I always tell clients that, you know, it's okay to train doorbell away, because a burglar is never going to ring the bell. So even just ringing the bell can be helpful. So they know it's a normal pattern, it's a normal person coming in, it's all about that context, crack the door, throw some treats, go back out, be consistent, slow and predictable, that'll win their heart,
Collin Funkhouser 11:54
I was just about to say one thing that I have found myself doing with those scenarios where the dogs are still warming up to me, you know, I find myself talking to them through the door a lot, on my way to the car on the way up to the door just to let them know who I am, that I'm going to be there. And I do that every single time. Just Just start building in some of these patterns. So it's predictable for them so that they're not, you know, acting out thinking that it's a new situation.
Rene Smith 12:19
Absolutely. And on that note, when you're talking to these, these dogs that are already potentially nervous when we're coming in the door, making sure that our tone stays friendly. Like we're talking to a friend, no baby talk. baby talk that coddling it can really trigger some guys.
12:36
it well. Absolutely. And I know that sometimes you can be a little self conscious, you know, changing your tone or going oh, gosh, what are the neighbors gonna think? You know, they just see me talking to a door. But
Collin Funkhouser 12:51
it happens, right? And you have to take those steps again, thinking about your safety and trying to make that experience as let you know, because, you know, for those those moments you have to go, what's the goal of this visit, the goal of this visit as a pet sitter is to make sure that the stress, minimal stress on the dog is possible and that I'm able to care for them the best way I can and have to be adaptive and creative in some of those instances as well.
Rene Smith 13:15
Absolutely, absolutely. When in doubt, be consistent. And it'll pay off and grow food. Don't try and hand it with your hand.
Collin Funkhouser 13:24
Right? Because you don't especially for new dogs or dogs that are still adjusting to you. You don't know how they're going to react. And and it could be a new day or you know, there's they're spooked by something and it can really yeah, cannot end well, for sure.
Rene Smith 13:37
Absolutely painted to trigger stacking. Was there a storm the night before fireworks? Some dogs? like trash day? Yeah, those things can change it from day to day. We don't even realize that if we're not there all day with them.
13:49
I like that word trigger stacking. Could you dive into that a little bit more and how that impacts our interactions with the dogs?
Rene Smith 13:57
Yeah, so my favorite way to explain this is with a human example. All right, so let's pretend we wake up and start our day and we go to make our coffee and the coffee makers broken. Bread. All right, I'm going to try and I'm going to go get my car I got no fuel. Okay, I gotta go to the freakin gas station. Now I'm late for work. And then your boss comes in and starts yelling at you when you come home. And your wife says hey, how was your day and you yell at them? Because I just can't anymore. What happens to our dogs?
Collin Funkhouser 14:26
Well, as you said, us too. And so yeah, we can bring that into those situations where you've got a dog that has had some stress throughout the day because it's trash day, and you are bringing stress into that situation because you missed your morning coffee. You got stuck in all of the red lights that day because it's always all the red lights on Tuesdays inevitably.
14:48
And if you don't if you don't take a moment to step back, breathe, reassess. See how you're doing? You can really walk into a powder keg.
Rene Smith 14:55
Absolutely my first thing I do when I have a dog that's trying to be aggressive towards me Take a deep breath, drop my shoulders and do nothing for three to five seconds. That's a long time, but it's worth it.
Collin Funkhouser 15:08
Yeah, because again, you have to make sure that you're okay. So that as we mentioned earlier, you're reading them correctly, you're not acting out irrationally. And that you you have control of a situation in that first step of having control over a situation is having control over ourselves and how we react?
15:23
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Collin Funkhouser 16:05
Now, I know many of us have had questions from clients who either get a new dog or adopt an older dog and think did I miss the boat? on training? Is it too late to work on some of these behaviors? So what would you say to somebody who is asking, you know, is there a magic age for training a dog?
Rene Smith 16:27
Yeah, so I mean, the best case scenario, you get a puppy into training between 12 and 16 weeks, right? when they're first starting, they've got that real playdough. And we can basically get him to do anything we want. Around 18 months is usually when leash aggression starts. And when you see signs of resource guarding potentially around that 18 month prep zone is what I call it. And then, you know, what you got to think about, especially with these guys that are reactive, aggressive, have a history of bullying people or other dogs, right? They're just playground bullies. And they've been so reinforced. So no, it's not too late. But we have to consider that for every one negative experience our dog has takes 10 to 15 positive experiences in the same context to rewrite it. Wow. So some battles just aren't worth it. Right. Others are I've got an 11 year old Pitbull who are he's 15 now but I'm muzzle trained him successfully at 11 years old. And he was muzzle aggressive. Wow. Yeah. So no. Yes and no is my answer to pretty much everything?
Collin Funkhouser 17:34
Well, as you said, context is important. And context is everything. What is the behavior? What is the dog? What what situations are we talking about here? What's there's a lot of things to take into consideration. But I think that it's important to as clients are reaching out to us at least let them know that there is hope possibly, right. There are ways there are ways to work with that.
Rene Smith 17:54
Absolutely. All the time. Yeah, I mean, we can we can set some reasonable goals. It's just all depends on how far gone the dog is.
Collin Funkhouser 18:03
Right? You touched on a really common behavior that I guess, you know, I've encountered a lot, and I have a lot of is resource guarding? How can we work with the pets that we're caring for to get better at that?
Rene Smith 18:19
Yeah, so resource guarding is huge, my biggest things to look out for for resource guarding is anything stiff, so they don't even have to grow bark lunge at you, if they're just stiff over their bowl, I'm gonna go ahead and put that big label on them. And with those guys, I'm going to do management 100% of the time. And what management means is they're on a leash, they're in their crate, or they're in a room behind a door, or there's a gate involved. They need something so they can't actually hurt you, number one. Number two, the other thing you can do is what I like to call drive bys. So they'll be eating their food. And we're going to walk by and throw a Cheerio at them and walk away three to five times while they're eating. And by the end, as you come to walk by they'll look up at you and you say Okay, sit on there, take your bowl. Now, thanks. We give them that same cereal and move on about your day.
19:08
Because I know many people think okay, if the dog is getting a little aggressive, what the thing I need to do is I need to put my hands down in their bowl and I need to be touching up in their face and getting with that I
Rene Smith 19:21
leave the dog alone, please. The dog is eating let the dog eat if you're going to do anything, throw food and walk away.
19:31
Right? Yeah. And again, you're doing these slow incremental steps, and always always watching the dog and the dog's reaction.
Rene Smith 19:39
Absolutely, absolutely. And we've got management in place just in case we screw up.
Collin Funkhouser 19:43
Right, right again thinking that safety all the way through 100% another behavior that is very prevalent and it becomes seems to be increasingly so is hearing of clients who have dogs that have separation anxiety or Maybe you're right. Or maybe they are showing signs of I guess this is two separate questions of starting some some early signs of aggression, and then separation anxiety. So let's start with separation anxiety. First, what are some preventative measures that we can be encouraging our clients to do to prevent separation anxiety?
Rene Smith 20:20
Yeah. So once again, context is everything. It's kind of a theme here. The first thing I like to recommend is great time during the day, even when everybody's home, we should designate 30 minutes to an hour every day, when we're home, that our dogs go in their crates and get something delicious, they get a frozen Kong with peanut butter, get something super good. And they just hang out on their crates, maybe it's during dinner time high transition points, when kids are coming home from school, just gonna put her dog in the crate with their a level treat and leave them alone. And then they have to be okay with that. For the specific separation stuff, we can do practice trips, where we give them all their stuff, say, See you later, we walk out the door, and we come right back in. Hey, good to see ya. So practice trips, keeping our tone neutral, right? It's not, oh, my God, goodbye, baby, I'm gonna miss you forever. Just walk out the door. See you later. Right? The bigger deal we make of it, the bigger deal it will be. They don't understand English, but they understand how weird we get based off of our neutral. So however far extreme you get off of your neutral speaking zone, that's what they're gonna pay attention to.
21:33
Yeah, and those can be kind of uncomfortable conversations to have with clients sometimes. How do you how do you work with with owners through that of like, I know you were going to really miss them. But can we tone down? this a little bit?
Rene Smith 21:48
Yeah, so I bring it back to the dog. Because ultimately, our clients just want their dogs to be happy. They just want a happy dog that sound and what we what I explained to them is when we do these forms of coddling right when we're verbally or physically trying to console our animal or help them be in a better emotional state, what we're doing is we're robbing them of the ability to self regulate. So now they have no way to calm down unless you're present. And that's a really crappy way to live. They have so many ways. Chewing, scratching, sniffing, there are so many things a dog can naturally do to calm down. And when we coddle them, we're literally robbing them of learning how to do it themselves.
Collin Funkhouser 22:30
I really liked that of putting it back on the owner and be like, this is going to help your pet even better, right? We're making them more physically more emotionally mature, basically, is what we're talking about this point I love that you know, love saying no self regulation, I think that's some people that can they can connect with that of like, when they are always constantly looking to you or need you present. You are like you said that I'm gonna restate it because it's perfect. robbing them of that ability and that key feature to them to allow them to function. Right as an individual in their in their environment.
Rene Smith 23:05
Yeah, it's, it's something just that subtle, and it usually clicks really well with clients. I don't have a lot of pushback, once I start talking like that.
Collin Funkhouser 23:12
Now, aggression may be I'd like to get your take on on aggression, because many people I feel like some clients wake up one day and they have an aggressive dog or they have a dog that right. So how do we how do we how do our clients find themselves in that kind of situation? What what kind of things are they missing?
Rene Smith 23:34
It depends. Right? So when I first hear about a dog who has a significant behavior change out of the blue, right? First, I want to know their age. How old are they if we're talking about a dog, that's, you know, an adult dog that suddenly was amazing in the same exact situation, 100% of the time, and this time they weren't. Take that dog to the vet, make sure they're not hurting. Right, make sure they don't have a toothache, make sure they don't have an ear infection. Some dogs have leash reactivity, simply because they've got compressed vertebrae in their neck. And you would have never known unless you got checked by the vet. Right. I had one dog with really severe anxiety, we couldn't figure it out. And I said, Hey, guys, I think he's blind. Sure enough, he was blind. And we they had no idea they had this dog for a year and he just had adapted so well to their home. Wow. Wow. So that check number one when we have black and white changes in our animals. The other big thing I want to look at is what signals might we have been missing? So I'll go back to those original what signals Did you miss? Okay, but has he ever been stiff? When you did it before? What was he like the last time you did it? Not what label they think it is? Okay, what does fine look like get them to describe that behavior for you? Right?
24:57
Yeah, and they may have to take some time to really think About that, because if they missed it right they missed it. They weren't paying attention. But
Collin Funkhouser 25:06
right but having some just prompting them and asking Does he ever do this like in pointing out some really small like he mentioned like just Does he ever stand stiff whenever you put the ball down and you're next to them and letting them know like that, that is actually a sign of resource guarding and many people would would never think about that because they think of resource guarding of, you know, the barking the growing the the hunched up, you know, actively going after you but going No, this is this is that was that was an early sign.
Rene Smith 25:37
Yeah, my favorite thing to do is tell clients, we look for the whispers or dogs don't have to scream, I'm gonna have to write that down. That's really good. works if we look for those whispers and they don't have to scream we can nip the aggression right in the bud. That's how we fixed that initial aggression stuff. I'll take a situation where dog would normally be stressed right? I have a personal dog Bentley. super aggressive. When I got him he beat me seven times the first day over an empty food bowl. Every transition moving in and out of rooms he was attacking dogs, the whole nine. So now what he does when he stressed his he'll grab a bone hop on his bed and show it to me wag his little tail, flip it up in the air. Look, Mom, I got my phone, and he'll lay down into it. I replaced that transition point with a self regulating behavior.
Collin Funkhouser 26:25
Right? Yep, pointing them to something have to do instead, right? Because part of these actions are sometimes I feel like they don't know how to communicate any other way. Right? They don't have any other language to use. This is just what has been ingrained in them. And part of this training process is going is that part of that redirection that going? No, this is what you do. This is what you do. This is what you do. And just staying consistent with that.
Rene Smith 26:51
Absolutely. Keeping in mind, it takes 60 to 90 days to rewrite a dog's brain. So there's no way other pets that are doing short intervals, you're going to actually be able to fix any of these behaviors. But if you can get it on recording, you can show the clients their dogs specific signals.
Collin Funkhouser 27:08
Well, and you set a key word there, you know, it might not ever be be fixed. So is something like aggression in a dog cannot be cured cannot be fixed, you know it permanently.
Rene Smith 27:20
Right? And everybody wants me to say yes, but the answer is no, there is no cure, quote, unquote, I forget people can't see me. There's no cure for aggression, right. But just like in Bentley's case, we can find replacement behaviors. And if we stay up on it, they will continue to give us as humans grace, because humans aren't perfect. Right? We're not going to be able to do a protocol exactly right, every single day for the life of the dog. There's just no way. But if we're consistent for long enough, then when we do screw up, they just come look at us and go, what was that? We go, oops, and everybody runs back to their corners and goes Okay, nevermind. It's great. Yeah.
Collin Funkhouser 28:04
Well, and as as a pet sitter, as a dog walker, you have a, you have a unique ability to partner with the owner, right? In addition to, you know, what the level of what we're talking about for behaviors with dogs, right now, it sounds like this really needs to be managed with a trainer working one on one with them with the owner. But the pet sitter of the dog walker, the house sitter can really be a partner in that be another set of eyes. And it'd be another way to reinforce this with the new situations they're being put in and all of the things that go along with that care.
Rene Smith 28:37
Yeah, absolutely. It's so many of the aggressive dogs I work with, could really use a pet Walker, it could really use a pet sitter, just sometimes the family can get a break. Right, you know, it can be so helpful.
Collin Funkhouser 28:51
And that's something to, to be mindful of, I feel like to is with when dogs are are acting out in this way, and they have these behaviors, sometimes there can be a lot of shame on the owners part, right? Where they they feel like they they have messed up their dog, they can't do anything. They can't go anywhere. They don't want to make anybody else's life miserable for the dog. And so they never reach out for help. Right. And they and they continue kind of in this cycle. And whenever they do have that opportunity to be gracious to them. Because as you said, we're humans, we're all gonna mess up. Yeah, so we knew we're really good at it. You started off talking about a day in your life that completely changed how you thought about dogs and dog aggression was breaking up a dog fight. And that is a common scenario that we find ourselves in, whether that's at a dog park, whether that's in our home, sometimes it's the owner's home, if they have multiple dogs there are just or a random dog on the street that comes in approaches and something breaks out. So from your experience How would you recommend somebody break up and get in resolve a dog fight?
Rene Smith 30:07
Sure. So it depends on where we're at. Let's pretend in the context of we're inside the home with multiple dogs, okay, we're in the home. It's the client style, and they're all just going after each other. The first thing we're going to make sure is that when we're giving out novelty items, we have management to hopefully avoid that. So novelty is a new type of new toy new food, making sure they're separated so they don't fight over it. Number one, right prevention. If they do get into a tussle, your first move is to actually walk away and find something loud. Okay, don't scream best you can. The biggest thing is stay away from the pointy things. Hands versus teeth, we lose every time stay away from the teeth. Stay away from them. I had a guy tried to break up a fight my rapid and clean through his hand and broken into pieces and one bite. Oh, stay away from the teeth. Okay, we go to the kitchen, we find two pots, we bang them together real loud. I love this product called pet corrector. It's just compressed air and a can it makes a loud hissing sound. That's great at separating stuff. Another good one is like a classic air horn, like you'd find at a track meet almost, that'll flatten the whole block. Those are great for dog park bites, because when they frenzy like that, you need something big. Those work great. Another good one is spray shield. That one I like for my walk protection. If I've got a loose dog, run up on my dog and grab ahold of it. I'm gonna hit him in the face with spray shield, it's just compressed citronella they just don't like the smell, they're gonna run right off. It's excellent. For the little tips, you can always use just an ultrasonic remote. Those work great as well.
Collin Funkhouser 31:53
That because it sounds like, you know, the last thing we want to be doing is putting ourselves in contact with the dogs, you know, you say stay away from the pointy end. That includes legs, Tails, anything because they can spit, you know, they're reacting fast. They're there. They're not paying attention to exactly who or what's touching them. They just know something's touching them, right. And so pulling ourselves out of that equation. So we don't escalate, we don't do anything to make it worse. And these products that you're talking about these things are really just trying to get a break a split second of attention, right and get them focused on something else.
Rene Smith 32:30
Correct. And as soon as they are then you can start saying go to your crates go over here. Let's do something else, get them outside, and then close the door is half the dogs run out the door. Right, right. Just get them away from each other. If you absolutely have to touch a dog in a fight, you're aiming for back feet up to your hips and spinning like a wheelbarrow. That is worst case scenario. last ditch effort you grab the aggressor. That is the very last thing you are allowed to do. Other than that, you really need some coaching, you really hopefully aren't getting put in situations where dogs have that much intent in fighting. If we are then the client lied to you. And that's a whole other situation.
Collin Funkhouser 33:11
Yeah, then that takes him. Yeah, that's that's a whole conversation. Yeah, for sure. But But you're right, again, just thinking of like, there are ways that I need to, there are things I can step through. Before I even think about grabbing the dog and I'm putting myself to indirect harm.
Rene Smith 33:28
Yeah, I like to think about a human running into a dog fight is the same as putting water on a grease fire. Not doing anything to help you're just spreading it around. So that's, that's my favorite way to think about it. Another key thing that people mistaken that I didn't even know until I started really diving into this. If you've got a small dog, and another dog is approaching your small dog, don't pick that dog up. Their first instinct hold that little dog to our chest. And that makes it so much worse. Throw it in a trash can throw it in the bed of a truck, lay on top of it. Those are way better options. You have to practice I do highly recommend practicing.
34:11
Right. Okay, so how would you recommend practicing because it's what would that look like?
Rene Smith 34:18
Yeah, so like I run fire drills with my dogs basically. I'll be like, Oh crap, everybody. I have a peekaboo cue that I use. Because it's impossible as a human to say peekaboo and make it sound aggressive. So I'll just peekaboo and that means food is going to appear from the skies and that I've just practiced that over and over and over again. So anytime something starting up, I can just yell Peekaboo. And everybody's like, Oh yeah, that means food.
34:50
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Collin Funkhouser 35:50
Now, you also have two kids, as you mentioned, and you have them around these dogs and many pet sitters find themselves with kids and dogs. So what kind of recommendations would you give to parents with who are also petsitting? and want to make sure that everybody stays safe?
Rene Smith 36:09
Sure. Yeah. So I've tried really hard not to scare people put this is where the stuffing get kind of scary when we start talking about kids and dogs, okay. So I've personally been bitten in the face twice by two different dogs as a kid, I got bed under the chin, and I had a Great Dane take off about half my face when I was 12. So I am the example of the exception of the rule. Most kids with that kind of damage would not have gone back to liking dogs. So it's really important to me that kids are not afraid of dogs. And how we do that is with management. So even in my home, I've got a beautiful gate separating my kids plays on from my living room. That way my kids have a dog breed zone, they can play in cancer on predictable, there's no way we can make kids do the right thing. They don't know they're just finding their voices. They want to stumble around and throw stuff. Cool. Let them do that away from your dogs away from dogs that you don't know, right? Absolutely right. There's this, this golden rule that the three, three rule, I don't know what it's called, I forgot right now. Anyways, three days, three weeks, three months, when you get a new dog, first three days or decompression window. If you guys are pet sitting, you have the dogs during a decompression window where they're at all an unpredictable and you don't know what's going to happen. I would never expose my kids to a dog in their first day or two in a new home. Absolutely not. There would be gates up where the kids can throw food at them, the dog can be on leash walking around with you, that's all totally fine. But at least one level of management should be in play. And we should be actively supervised supervising, when my kids are interacting with my dogs. I'm not on my phone, I'm not watching a show on TV, I'm watching my kids interact with my dogs
Collin Funkhouser 38:03
monitoring those behaviors. And I kind of like to know when we have dogs here in our house because we will board and we do the meet and greets. And we go through the screening process and ask these questions. But we still try and provide space of a kid free dog zone and a dog free kids zone. Right? where everybody can go and have their own space because everybody needs that everybody needs to be able to step back to shut a door and to be themselves and to act the way they want to act and not have to be so watchful all the time. Like that's just really needed to help through that, especially that you mentioned that decompression time. And and really allowing everybody to have both physical and mental and emotional space to.
Rene Smith 38:46
Absolutely. And keeping in mind things like kids between five and nine are the most risk of getting bit that's the age range that most kids get. So if you've got kids in that zone, making sure your management is on point is super, it's really smart to do making sure we're not teaching our kids to correct dogs that don't live in the home. We don't have a reinforcement history, we've got no business correcting a child should never be in charge of corrections. My child will save leave it and the dog will come to me for reinforcement. It's a que nada correction. Right?
Collin Funkhouser 39:19
Yeah. And that can be hard as parents because we like seeing our kids take those positions and oh, look what they're doing with the dog. Isn't that cute? But what you're saying is, you know, again, no, like it needs to be focused and needs to be consistent here.
Rene Smith 39:32
Yeah, absolutely. Kids can be in charge of enrichment. Oh, kids are the best at enrichment. They're so good at playing US adults suck at playing. We don't know what we're doing. I make kids in charge of enrichment all day long. That's their job right? Go go make something cool out of a water bottle. Give it to the dog. How fun is this? Right? But we don't have them in charge of making the dog sit stay for a bowl especially an unknown dog. We don't have them in charge of water. These unknown dogs, things like that,
40:02
right? Yeah, absolutely. And just remembering what roles are appropriate for them and age appropriate things as well.
Rene Smith 40:08
Absolutely any kid under the age of 10 generally can't handle being part of a, like a regimented training protocol, is what I like to consider.
Collin Funkhouser 40:17
I wanted to touch on the topic that I'm sure many listeners are thinking about, they're going to aggression, surely they're going to talk about dog breeds, and aggression and dog breeds and all this stuff. So I would love to get your thumbs up, it always comes up. It always does. It's always a really big topic. And especially with not so much of people in the pet care industry, because they see dogs and all sorts of circumstances and no, right that it's not, how can we help communicate? That aggression does not equate to breed and breed does not equate to aggression to our clients, and start wading through some of that misinformation that a lot of people have.
Rene Smith 40:54
Yeah, so a lot of the times when I hear clients talking about, for example, the classic Pitbull, right, they're aggressive. They're mean, they'll chase everything and bite it, I flip that and say, You're right, they do have a lot of prey drive, they have a lot of work drive, which we can harness and turn into something else. But when it's left unchecked, of course, us as humans, when we're toddlers, we say no to everything. And unless it's checked, we will continue being little jerks. So looking at the breed, and as far as what that breeds motivating factors are can really help change the conversation away from breed statements.
Collin Funkhouser 41:32
Right? Well, and you've you've sounds like you've done a lot of your life dedicating to flipping that script on these stigmas that are around breeds what got you into into that and so passionate about that.
Rene Smith 41:44
I'm actually I'm a recovering addict alcoholic, so I figured if I couldn't flip it over, they could too. I just celebrated my five year sober in February.
Collin Funkhouser 41:52
Oh, well, that's amazing. Congratulations. You know, that is such a that's such a huge thing, right? Like, and then to be rededicating and trying to help these dogs have the better life the the life that you're you know, now leading on this road is is really beautiful. I didn't I didn't know that, Renee. That's really that's really special.
Rene Smith 42:10
Thank you. Yeah, you know, I, I was fostering and like I said, I took in way too many dogs. I don't recommend my lifestyle to anybody. But I'm doing what I can. And I realized that through training, I can help more dogs than I can ever own.
Collin Funkhouser 42:25
Right, because you're going directly to the source, you're you're going directly to the client, you're going directly to do this. And I think that leads into this quote that you have that I absolutely love the statement on your website that says that you are going to help you helping train on both ends of the leash to make sure that the bond stay sacred between you and your four legged companion. What does that look like with that relationship is is kept sacred between a client and their dog.
Rene Smith 42:54
So what I mean by that is, a lot of the times we as humans are sending so many mixed signals to our animals that we're actually making them kind of paranoid. So things like leash reactivity. For example, if I've got a dog with leash reactivity, the first thing I asked my client is what do you do when you see a dog? Well, I take in my leash, okay, so you add a whole bunch of tension until your dog how scary The situation is. If we're calm, we take that I say this very loosely, but quote unquote, leadership role, right? Our dogs were bred to follow our guidance, they want to work for us. That's what they want to do. And we've put our dogs in this role where they're telling us what to do. They fall apart most of the time, right? So we kind of step up and become the neutral most we're supposed to be the most predictable thing in their life. Even when the whole world is on fire. We are Yes, good. Yes. Good. Here we go. That's a fire. All right. And that's what I mean by that. Right. classic example. I had my my Cane Corso in my car with me one day heading off to work with a client. She's super scared of people but amazing with other dogs. So I use her to help rehab other dogs. We were on our way. I was driving about 5060 miles an hour. And next thing I know a deer came through my windshield. Literally, my windshield came into my car totaled my jeep right there on the side of the road, and I had deer in my car. Oh, so I've got this dog who's terrified of the world who was just in a car accident with me. And I've spent at this point two years rehabbing her and I'm like, great. It's all over. So glass in my hair in my mouth. I got out of my car with my spray eg cheese blew the glass out, pulled her out. We didn't tricks until the ambulance showed up. Just to make sure and she hopped in the car The next day, right? Yeah, yeah, we freaked out. I mean,
Collin Funkhouser 44:48
yeah, we forget that those things that were communicating whether we recognize it or not, right, that leash is a two way communication Street. That and that's, you know that same way in these situations of your dog is looking to you going do I freak out now? Do I freak out now? Do I freak out now?
Rene Smith 45:05
You're kind of freaking out, should I be freaking out to you seem pretty scared, it must be your fault. You must be the bad guy. Don't worry, Mom, I got it.
Collin Funkhouser 45:13
Right. And then to know that you have these dogs, especially whenever they're going through this recovery process, yeah, how fragile that that that line is that tether that's keeping them afloat, knowing that that's something that we need to be, you know, watchful of and, and for pet sitters protecting that as well, right, like we already have, just for us, we recently had a client reach out to us that wants to come over and start taking care of the dog. But the wife had just gotten out of a 10 year abusive relationship with her husband, and she was crazy, concerned about how this dog was going to be around, and we worked with it. And we worked with it. And she had cameras in her room. And she called me the other day and said, I just watched those videos of YouTube. And I cry because I never I thought my dog was so broken, I couldn't have them around another human being again. And when you're on the floor, and you're cuddling with him, and you're allowing him to, you know, be a dog around you, you know, it is this beautiful thing. And and that's something that we get to experience and we get to share with our clients. Right. Like, that's so cool. But But always recognizing that, you know, we were helping them through that process.
Rene Smith 46:19
Absolutely. And you know, the he brought up a really good point, let's say everything goes to crap, and you had a bad visit with the dog. Throw a treat. Anyways, always end on a good note, don't leave on that bad note, you'll set yourself up for failure when you go back up.
46:37
You're right, again, looking to the positive, keeping that reinforcement going and letting go. I think it's a it's basically our way of being like, it's gonna be okay. Right? Yeah. Tomorrow's a new day. It's going to be okay.
Collin Funkhouser 46:49
Try again. Yeah, absolutely. It's just rinse and repeat. I know that there are a lot of resources out there. And so if people are listening, and they want to find more information, or, you know, where what are some places that you go for information that you would recommend to others to go check it out?
Rene Smith 47:10
Yeah, so when I first got started, I went through animal behavior college to get kind of my basics under me to see if I even liked dog training, I just wanted to see if I even wanted it. So I went through that school, it was great. You get six months online six months with a mentor in your area. I love that. So I kept my personal mentor. And then when I got specifically into aggression, I started training under a guy named Michael Chicago. And if you're looking for anything, specifically aggression, he's the go to man. He's amazing,
Collin Funkhouser 47:41
Renee, this has been a really wonderful conversation. And I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed it, learning about aggression, learning about our role in protecting our dogs and our role in helping them flourish. And and beyond that great road to recovery in that beautiful story that you have as well. But I know there's a lot more to cover, right? We didn't go through animal behavior college. And and so if people want to get connected with you pick your brain on this and just get connected. How best can they do that?
Rene Smith 48:09
Yeah, so I pretty easy email is on my website, St. Dog rehab@gmail.com. My phone numbers on my website, I'm on Facebook, that's a really good way to get ahold of me. I even run a a dog training group on Facebook, there's a link in my profile. And I'll give it to you for the show notes as well. Join in, I post up free tips all the time. We've got a wonderful community built up.
Collin Funkhouser 48:32
Awesome. Yeah, I encourage everybody to go in start learning and start getting connected and and see exactly how we can start putting some of these things into practice in our in our businesses. And when we're interacting with dogs, though, Renee again, thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. This was awesome. Thanks for having me. Most of us will not encounter level of aggression in dogs that Renae experiences because she specifically seeks them out through her business. However, I do think it is critically important that as pet professionals, we are prepared to start working with smaller cases and know where our limits are as pet sitters as dog walkers to hand that off to somebody else. So that a we don't get in over our head. And that be that dog can get the best care and best attention possible and be working towards a solution. And again, we get to be part of that we get to help partner with the owner and with the trainer if they decide to bring one on and work with everybody to be consistent and to continue improving the quality of life for that pet. We want to thank our sponsors time to pet and pet sitters international for making today's show possible. And we want to thank you so much for listening and for supporting the show in every way that you do. We'd love to hear feedback and get your perspective on what it means to work with an aggressive dog and what experiences you have had and how you have been shaped and molded through those in your business and how you interact with them. Send us an email at feedback at pet certified dot com. Or you can call us 6363648 to six, zero. love to be able to play an audio clip of your voicemail on the show with some feedback. So hope you have a wonderful rest of your week and we'll be back again soon.
