541: Beyond Colors and Fonts: Building a Brand that Connects with Cagney Collins
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Are you creating a brand that truly connects with your ideal clients? Cagney Collins, of Pet Marketing Unleashed, explores what it takes to build a brand that goes beyond colors and fonts. Cagney shares how consistency, quality visuals, and a clear brand voice work together to attract the right audience. She discusses why understanding your clients’ lifestyle and preferences is essential in crafting a brand vibe that resonates. Plus, Cagney offers tips on balancing personal preferences with the needs of your target market for a cohesive, memorable brand experience.
Main topics:
Branding consistency for connection
Identifying target audience traits
Importance of quality photography
Using color psychology effectively
Developing brand voice
Main takeaway: Branding is essentially about conveying a feeling. It’s about curating a vibe that resonates with your target audience, beyond just colors and fonts.
About our guest:
Cagney Collins is as passionate about her two beloved cats as she is about designing unforgettable brands for pet businesses! With over six years in the graphic design world, she started out creating illustrations for friends and family, transforming her hobby into a thriving career. Today, Cagney specializes in crafting unique, cohesive brands that help small businesses stand out. She works with Pet Marketing Unleashed to create stunning brand identities and websites tailored for businesses in the pet industry. From logo design to brand strategy, Cagney brings a deep understanding of what makes a brand memorable and impactful.
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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
Provided by otter.ai
Keywords
branding consistency, target audience, color psychology, professional photography, client journey, copywriting, brand vibe, design elements, mood board, logo variations, brand patterns, icon design, VIP days, communication, feedback
SPEAKERS
Cagney C., Collin
Collin 00:00
Music. Welcome to pet sitter confessional, an open and honest discussion about life as a pet sitter. Today, we're brought to you by time to pet and pet perennials. Today, we're really excited to talk about a topic that we small business owners, I don't think we give enough credence to, and that's understanding what it means to brand and be branded, and how to be consistent with that, so that we can be reaching the clients that we actually want to be connected with, instead of getting confused about why people are contacting us whenever they're not a good fit. So how do we screen people by presenting ourselves in such a way to make that happen and to talk about this topic, we're really excited to have Cagney Collins, owner of Cagney Davis designs. She also works with pet marketing, unleashed branding designs for businesses and making that a cohesive unit. So Cagney, I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you today and talk about design and messaging and branding and all sorts of other stuff. So for those in our audience who aren't familiar with your work, could you please tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? Yeah. So,
Cagney C. 01:02
like you said, my name is Cagney Collins, and I am a brand and web designer. I have my own business, like you had mentioned earlier of Cagney Davis designs. With that one, I mainly help out creative small business owners, and then I also work with pet marketing unleash, where we really help out pet businesses with their branding, web design, copywriting and all the design things like business cards, social media, templates, all this stuff. So how did you get into that? So I actually originally was, like, my business started out as just an illustration business where I was bored during COVID times and had an iPad, and just like, made illustrations for my friends and family, and then people were wanting to pay me. So like, okay, I guess I should turn this into a business, but at the end of the day, I had a lot more fun branding my own business and creating the website, rather than, like, going to an art market and lugging like, 50 pounds worth worth of art products like that just was not fun for me anymore. Um, so I totally pivoted and went right into the branding and web design space. Oh, yeah, it's
Collin 02:16
different kind of lifestyle too, isn't it? Yeah,
Cagney C. 02:20
totally different, totally different well, so
Collin 02:23
you work with with branding and with and that's closely tied with with marketing and attracting our ideal clients. So from from your perspective, how do you go about developing a brand that is like an active brand, and attracting clients, as opposed to just being kind of, you know, some some colors and a font that we put on our website, right?
Cagney C. 02:45
A lot of it is so much research, which I feel like you know, if you don't know anything about brand design, you're just choosing some colors you like or choosing some fonts that you like. But a lot goes in to figuring out how we can attract their target audience, and really looking into who those people are. So what are their interests? What's their age, what do they do for work, and from there, looking into brands that even those people are typically attracted to. So an example is, we designed a brand for a pet business based in Colorado, and their target audience, they were young couples, and they loved going on hikes and taking their dogs with them, and so we really leaned into designing a brand that attracted that audience by bringing in colors that felt outdoorsy but fun and playful, since that's also how she wanted her brand to come across. And it worked really well, since we knew her target audience so well
Collin 03:44
on that research stage. Many times as business owners, you know, the typical story is we as pet sitters. We start pet sitting for friends and family, kind of well, like your story, also, some people are wanting to pay you money for it, and then we make that decision, and we go, oh, well, I guess I need to do something, so I'll just start pet sitting. And I think one of the early mistakes a lot of business owners, and we made it too, and we continue to make this, is thinking, everybody's for us right now. Who's my target client? People with pets and have money, right? Like, can't, can't that? Yeah, how do you work with with business owners to kind of hone in on that, on that niche, or do, do people need to come to you with something kind of already clearly in mind?
Cagney C. 04:26
So sometimes people do come to us and they're not really sure. A lot of it, I can base off of, okay, the location that you're in, what type of clients of all the clients, not all of them, are your actual dream ones, right? You know, there are even personality types that you vibe with that you really want to have more clients like that. So really thinking deep into Okay, of all the people that I've worked with, which one was my favorite, and how can I get more people like that to work with me? Um. Is really leaning into who those type of target audience that they really want to reach? Yeah,
Collin 05:05
it's way more complex. When, when, when the can. The next step that I see a lot of people take is where they go, Okay, we'll all focus on income ranges, because that's what I want wealthy clients. But as you said, Cagney, you have to go, but personality too, right? Because we we can have people who can pay our prices that we don't want to work with, I raise my hand to say that we've done that lot, but we've got, actually, I don't care how much you pay me, it's not worth this is too much of a pain. And so for you, I mean, are you doing research into, you know, color psychology and that kind of stuff, or is it really a kind of a feel for what's going to work best for somebody. A
Cagney C. 05:43
lot of it is a feel. But also, I mean, with the color psychology, I mean colors give off a mood and a vibe, whether we subliminally know it or not. So a lot of it at this point is a vibe. I feel like I'm like a vibe curator, and that sounds like I don't even know, but every time I'm like, Okay, if there's one thing I can do, I can set a vibe and then build a brand off of that. Yeah, I don't really know if that answers your question, but no, but
Collin 06:11
it's kind of finding, like, what's, what's driving with this, what's what is actually and you kind of do this, not necessarily assimilating, but association of Okay, once I've developed who I want to work with, you even mentioned, like, what kind of other brands are they associated with? What are some of those looks and feels? How do I kind of fit in, or have this aura, this vibe, without being bland, or without being unrecognizable or standing out in a particular way, so still having that unique quality, while also kind of going, Hey, look, you know, I'm, I'm like the other things you like, kind of thing come over here, exactly,
Cagney C. 06:44
exactly. Yeah, the types of brands that people like will tell you, honestly, a lot about somebody. And a lot of times you'll see like, common themes between all of them, like, say, someone's a hiker, they really love going to REI too, or all those different things. You know, it just brands that they like make sense.
Collin 07:04
Yeah, it's so when you're when you're creating a brand, what kind of what, what kind of particular elements of a brand kind of are become sticky, because we've already mentioned colors a little bit. But are there any other aspects to a brand that are that we need to be considering?
Cagney C. 07:20
Oh, gosh. I mean all of it together, I would say a big thing is your brand can be really great, and sometimes it gets ruined with bad photography. I feel like I see that a lot, and it just again, back to the vibe. It could ruin the whole vibe if, like, you have a really professional brand, and then your photos are just like lackluster shot with your iPhone out of focus, which like they can be shot with your iPhone, but just out of focus and dark. That's not to say that you need to be like some huge professional photographer, but it just goes back to that professionalism of okay, if your branding is super professional and then your photos aren't, it just feels like a disconnect, you know,
Collin 08:05
yeah, being cohesive in that approach of knowing I, how am I? Because it's really going How should I? How do I need to be represented at every aspect when people see me, going, okay, great. I've got this amazing logo and color scheme and font that Cagney put together for me, and it's really great. I've got my website redone. And then, yeah, I go and put this out of focused, dark, blurry photo as my cover image. And it's like, wait a minute here, like, that's, that's not the cohesive here, and that's not actually telling the fullness of what we're trying to do. So it does create, it all of a sudden, adds a lot of responsibility to us as the business owner, to sit and really think, does this element fit? Does this element fit, is this consistent and with what we're trying to do, right?
Cagney C. 08:52
And a lot of times with our actually, most of the time with our clients, they may run into that issue, and they're like, Okay, I really want to, you know, hire a brand photographer, get some professional pictures. But what can I do in the meantime? And there's no shame in using stock free images. I use them all the time on websites. So you can go to sites like Pexels or Unsplash, those are really great free images, even videos that you can use on your site to still have that very professional look. And then when you get those brand photos, you can implement those in to show you or your team off, you know, walking the dogs or doing the things. Because I guess it also is
Collin 09:33
different on where these photos are going, right? Is this? Is this a social media post that's going to be kind of more like a flash in the pan, or is this more for my static website? I say static meaning that, like, we kind of set it and work with it, because with social media, yeah, I think a lot of people may panic and go, oh, I need branded photos for everything I post on social media. So I'm just going to be spending 10 grand a year photos or whatever, and it's like, no, no, no, like, time and place for every. Thing. But when we're thinking of like, how do I want to be represented here? And I know a lot of this is too in the context of my of like a website, of a place where people can go like this, because what we're trying to do is have a place that defines us, that people can get understand our vibe
Cagney C. 10:14
Exactly. And social media can be a lot more like authentic in the moment, like you said, capturing those in the moment pieces. So like, Oh, you're, say, walking a dog. Let me snap a photo real quick and post it on my story. Like, that's fine. You don't need to be like, Oh my gosh. I need to go to Unsplash and source an image on social media, but on your website Absolutely. Like, take that to your advantage. So
Collin 10:40
from your experience when you're putting these together, you know, are there certain things that you found, or, you know, in working with clients that actually tend to trigger, you know, a visitor and turn them into a client? Because I know that's that's a conversion that a lot of us really try, and that's what we want, obviously, at the end of the day, is going, I don't, I can get all of the web traffic to my website every, every day, but are they actually becoming clients? So from a from a branding perspective, is there something that is, you know, like a top three or top five kind of thing that we need to be aware of?
Cagney C. 11:13
Oh, as far as branding, well, a lot of it, I would say, like actually converting clients on like a website. Stuff goes a lot into the copywriting and the strategic like layouts of websites and making sure that you're touching every single touch point of like the client journey on the site. But as far as branding goes, I would again say, leaning into what's actually going to attract that target audience, rather than, say your personal preferences or stuff like that, and actually being like, consistent with your branding on every single touch point. So whether that's your website, how you're communicating with them in emails, over Instagram, like all the things and talking like your target audience talks, so like, say you're a Gen Z dog walker, but your client is a boomer or something, you're not gonna, you know, talk in Gen Z slang that's not gonna connect with them and want them to keep, like, browsing on your website, to Click further in when
Collin 12:21
you mentioned that customer journey, that's an aspect where we have to know our clients so well to go, what do they anticipate to be next? And then what do I need to be next so that they know what's going on? And it's not just a, you know, it could just be a, you know, a CLICK HERE button to get started. But there's also in but we kind of think we forget about the scroll down to the button right. That's part of that journey of what information are they getting prior to seeing that Get Started button, so that they're kind of primed and ready. How am I capturing that person's attention? Do I know three pain points that my client has that I need to have up there? Getting back to that copywriting that you're talking about, Cagney, you're going I need them to be furiously clicking on that button as hard as they can by the time they've scrolled past my information, because they know they're a perfect fit and they found their person, right?
Cagney C. 13:14
Yeah, I always love to include that on whenever I'm designing a website, of like, very close to the top of, like, right underneath the hero section. I always like to have a section that talks about, okay, this is your problem, and this is why our business is the solution to that problem. So they can almost see themselves in the copywriting, which I'm no copywriting expert. We have an amazing copywriter on our team, Andrea, but I know bits and pieces of it, of just knowing when your client is on their on your website, and saying, oh my gosh, I see myself. It's as if this business knows me, and I definitely need to book their services
Collin 13:56
well. And from a business owner's perspective, this gets a little scary, because it means that I have to clearly define who I'm for, right? Which means, which means, inherently, I'm defining who I'm not for by having my main problem there I am excluding 90% of the people who have come to my website. But we've got to do that, because we need the people who want to use us, not that, not that are using us out of obligation or out of Well, you're the last resort. Oh, well, fine. I'll just because we don't want those one offs, right? We don't want that one time that person is just desperate for somebody and we happen to answer our email, we want to be connecting with those people who become those raving and loyal fans and clients of ours, as opposed to just, you know, humdrum people who come and go. So being exclusionary is part of defining this process in our branding, and, you know, even the copywriting Absolutely,
Cagney C. 14:54
I mean, if you're not, it's the same thing of, okay, every dog walk. Or wants someone who's willing to pay them to walk their dog, or every dog walker you know has that those same target audience, but when you then do define it more, like I said, we get back into like, the preferences, their interest of those people you're really trying to attract, if that makes sense, yeah,
Collin 15:22
yeah, it does. So from a from a branding perspective, when you, I'm sure you spend a lot of time scrolling on Facebook and you're scrolling on websites and looking at Instagrams, what are some common mistakes that you see a lot of people making?
Cagney C. 15:35
Oh my gosh, I would say the biggest is not being consistent, like I see that all the time, you know, you may spend the amount of money to get your branding done, and then when you're not consistent with it, it falls flat, you know. So you really need to, like, get your money's worth and and get your return on investment by being consistent across your website, your social media, whether that's having like social media templates for your Instagram stories on your Instagram posts, your business cards, like every single touch point should be consistent, and even with back to like, the copywriting, the way that You're writing in your copy on your website should be similar to how you're doing your captions on Instagram, how you're emailing them, even how you're communicating with them in real time, you know, but the consistency is huge, because when you're then consistent with your branding, it goes into people actually remembering you remembering to come back of Oh, I really connected with this brand. They were so great. Let me, you know, I need a dog walker. Let me go back to that business. And even if they don't turn into paying clients, if you're rememberable, they will then tell their friends and family about your business. When
Collin 17:01
we talked about, or we've heard about, you know, it takes seven points of contact for somebody to remember who you are or whatever. You know, whatever that stat is, it changes all the time, it seems like, but, but the consistency is so true. And you know, when you point that out, I'm thinking, yeah, because if they see a certain set of colors on one thing and then a different set of colors on another thing. Well, in their mind, well, was that two different companies? Was that two different thing? What was what was that? And they had the this logo, but this one was kind of different. The the exactly going, No, I need it to be so strong and such a clear signal that every time they see it, because what happens? Then, our brains are great at pattern matching. They're really good at pattern matching, such, to the extent that, over time, if people can be exposed to our brand enough, they need to see less and less of it to know, oh, that's that person, right? Oh, that's that person. I mean, just think of all the big brands out there. You know, Nike, Audi, what a apple like, you need to see just a tiny, itty bitty sliver of something to go. Got it right, because it's ingrained because of that consistency. And so we need to be able to do that with our target clients and target audience.
Cagney C. 18:08
Yeah, I say this. I was literally going to say the same thing about like, Nike or Coca Cola. You could see, like, two seconds of a commercial by there, so you're like, Ah, I know this is by Nike, or I know this is by Coke, or even I remember, and maybe this is just me being on, like, the graphic design side of Tiktok or stuff, but I remember seeing this, like game where they would just show the colors of a brand, they would remove the actual logo, yes, yes. Like, what brand is this? And people were able to just know immediately by seeing that brand over and over, like you said, pattern matching.
Collin 18:43
I think I saw someone, something similar, but with like superheroes, of like their colors for the branding, of like Superman versus the Hulk versus stuff. I saw like they become so memorable and and you can even think about, when you see a commercial from one of those larger companies, there's a tone to it, right? And you'll see, oh, wow. I know this is a Nike commercial, because this is how they typically do lighting. And we might not be thinking of this consciously, right? We're not, we're not critiquing lens flares or whatever in the moment, but it feels like an apple commercial, or it feels like a Coca Cola commercial, right?
Cagney C. 19:16
And, I mean, that's essentially what branding is, is conveying a feeling. I say that like all the time. That's why I say it's curating a vibe. Because, okay, are we going for, like, a bold and energetic and playful vibe? Are we going for something that feels calm and serene? You know, two different shades of blue can do that, or two different fonts can convey that different vibe.
Collin 19:39
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19:44
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Collin 20:05
you're looking for new pet sitting software, give time to pet a try. Listeners of our show will save 50% off your first three months by visiting time to pet.com/confessional Well, part of the problem with that, and especially with being consistent, is especially when there's a delta between business owners vibe and the vibe of their clients. So how, how do you help people who struggle with in finding if, with differentiating and having a clear delineation between personal preference and from what our target audience? Because when we start our business, we're like, this is my business. I run it how I want to run. I got this in this so that I could be consistent with my values and core beliefs and mission and stuff. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, but my I'm not, but the people who are using me that's not there's, there's a disconnect there. So if we're struggling to find that, how can you how can you help us? Please, please help us. Kaggle,
Cagney C. 21:05
I love a good brainstorm list. I'm very much like a list writer. So I would jot everything you know about your target audience, and you may feel like you don't know, but just think of all your different clients that you've worked with. Who were your favorite people to work with? Why were they your favorite people? Going back into okay, how old were they? What generation are they in? What are their interests? Where do they shop? What's their ideal weekend out? What do they do for work? Do they like to travel? Like all the things you can think about them. And even if you want to go back into the personality things, is this person laid back and easy going? Or I'm trying to think of the opposite, but the opposite sounds awful. It's, are they uptight or something? But you don't want to work,
Collin 21:57
we certainly get more like intense, like, like, direct clients as well, as opposed to the Oh, whatever, you're fine, cool. And then people are like, No, XYZ, exactly at 703, this is what you gotta do, right?
Cagney C. 22:10
Exactly. So think of all those sort of things. And sometimes we are similar to our target audience. And if that's the case, you may have areas in your branding that do speak directly to you as well, and that's okay. I say that all the time to clients, but always keeping your target audience at the forefront of your mind goes beyond, you know, just some colors and fonts and how I mentioned that example earlier, like, how does your audience speak? You know, because you if there's like a, you know, generational gap, that same example I mentioned, you want to talk the way that they talk, not like exactly, but you know, you aren't going to be doing or saying all the like trending slang or whatnot. So, yeah, I always love a list. Jot it down. Write down a list, brainstorm and really sit with it, of figuring out what type of people you want to work with. And even, like, when we think of the different like, Oh, what do they do for work? Like, why does that matter? But sometimes their work has to do with, okay, what type of schedule do they have? Like, are they nurses and they're gone all the time, so they really need someone to watch their dog? Or are they, like, a high executive and they're always busy and traveling or something? So that's what we mean by like, what do they do for work? Because sometimes people get caught up on that, like, I don't know what my clients do for work. Why does that matter? You know? But it goes beyond like, what their actual lifestyle is, right,
Collin 23:42
right? Because it starts speaking to their particular pain points, so that we can start having a common voice and a common problem set, right? Yeah, okay, oh, it turns out that I actually serve quite a few people in the medical field well, who, what might be their concern, right? So this is all when you talk about doing research. We're doing this is all research of thinking and wondering, and you can even do this again. You're in clients homes. You can see where they're shopping. You can see what their interiors of their homes look like. You can see some of their favorite brands from right there, what books are there, what books are on their bookshelf, right like we have. You actually have a big insight into our clients, even though we might not think about it. And yes, you can be forward and direct when you do a new client meeting and onboarding of saying, hey, well, so glad. You hope. What do you do for work? You know, it's a question that people ask offhanded all the time. It's just part of conversation, getting to know somebody. But you know, we also have to be comfortable with being forward in those moments, but understanding it is important, because it helps us make informed decisions, not just about colors and fonts, but about service offerings, pricing and flexibility too.
Cagney C. 24:50
That's so true. That's a really good point, especially, like you said, the pricing and yeah, details of your services, because when you know your target audience, you know. So like, what needs to be included in the service? What, like, extra mile Can I go that would really help this specific target audience? Yeah,
Collin 25:07
and what stays on brand with that, we're getting branding, getting to our mission and vision and values and goals for our company, and going, how do I serve people? Right? It's important, because we're serving people. So if I don't know the people I'm serving, how do I know how to serve them? Well, how do I know how to talk to them? How do I know to bring them to me? Because if I believe it's gonna take it from this perspective, if I believe I'm the only solution to their problem, and I'm gonna do it in the best way possible, how do I tell more people about that I can help them? And that's what this is about. Of going at some point it stops being about me and my preferences and serving the people that I want to serve most while still saying, like you said, Cagney, well, there'll be a little bit of overlap. You can find, you know, something in here that you can really couch in and you can dig into, but there will be other elements, and that's fine, and just kind of letting go of that so that we can help the people that we need to absolutely and it's, you know, especially when like, with like colors and stuff too, I see that a lot where I know, even for us, of like, Is this my favorite color? No, like, Would I paint my house this color? No, not really, but in the totality of things, that's kind of the vibe we're going for. So also, letting go of our just again, those personal preferences
Cagney C. 26:21
for sure, for sure. I mean, I have, like, I don't know so many examples of this where this happens all the time, of like, say, back to like, having a calm vibe versus an energetic you could have your favorite color be hot pink, but if you're trying to be a very like, serene, calming brand like you want your brand to feel like a breath of fresh air that your services help, having the hot pink, you know, in your color palette, it's really even if it's your favorite color is just not going to do that. So maybe it's even like sometimes we can, you know, differentiate. Okay, well, let's tone down the shade of that color. If you really, really want pink in there. Is there a way that we can include that so that, because I, at the end of the day, want you to still be obsessed with your brand, and it may not be all filled with your personal preferences, and we don't want it to be like we've mentioned all throughout this podcast, but if we, you know, adjust some things, we can make some stuff work, you know,
Collin 27:26
yeah, and having those guard guard rails too is those guidelines, I guess, you know, you mentioned making the list, you know, what other ways have you found are beneficial for helping maintain that distinction? You know? So let's say, you know, we're working through this. I've got it, because this all comes back to that consistency. And you said, I want you them to love, be in love with the brand. But sometimes it may be tempting to go, oh, well, I'll just slide this in here, or whatever.
Cagney C. 27:55
Yeah, I with every single client. I always love to record a video, because I'm like, a visual person, so me just typing out, like, well, that doesn't work, and then just not explaining the reasoning why. So I always record a video going over each design choice and explaining, okay, see now that you can visually see your personal preference in there. This is why that doesn't work. This is why it's not going to attract your target audience, and then showing them the alternative of, okay, now that we do it this way, look at how much that changes the vibe of the brand.
Collin 28:33
You know? Yeah, and seeing both of those, and that's exactly how I learned. It's hard to just see one example, right? Sometimes I too, have to be like, well, here's 17 iterations of this, so that you can see the progression of it getting better, right? See
28:50
exactly,
Collin 28:52
but it all starts with being that clearly defined nature, right? So that we have to, and that's probably, I mean, you probably spend when you think of when you are working with somebody or helping somebody time wise, like, where do you see usually spend most of your time working with somebody? Is it in the research phase? Is it the back and forth on color phase? You know, kind of where, how does that line out?
Cagney C. 29:16
I would say, especially because we do, which I'm sure we'll talk about it later. Of these like brand VIP days. So we're creating your brand literally in one day. I would say a bulk of that time for me as a designer is probably the mood boarding research phase, when then it comes to having the client come in and having some back and forth, I would say it's the primary logo. That's the first thing that we do. Like giving them two different concepts to choose from, and then tweaking things here and there to make sure it feels very aligned for their target audience. But also, again, something that they really love too, and would like love to, you know, slap on a hat or on a shirt. Or all the things. So it's sort of like those initial phases. Once those initial phases are complete, everything else, like just follows right after and comes together very nicely.
Collin 30:13
Yeah, and not being afraid to dig into that, right? Because if you skimp on that first part, if you skimp on understanding who you're for, it's kind of pointless to then go talk about colors and fonts, right? Because there's no need, because you don't know who it's actually trying to attract. Because at the end of the day, I mean, all of this exercise is so that when we present ourselves, we showcase our vibe, we're kind of putting ourselves out there and go, any anyone else, right? It's kind of like I'm imagining at a, you know, at a party, right? You act in certain ways, you'll attract certain people to you who are also like, Oh, look at that. What that person's doing. I want to go see what's going on. Let me go talk to them. You build friendships that way. You put yourself in situations. And we are trying to do this for our business. It's really scary to go. I've got to put myself out there. I've got to put myself out there. How do I do that in the best light, so that I remember that I'm talking to the right people, because some people aren't going to like it. That's fine. I want that. I want people to self select out of my company before they're on the phone with me, because that's awkward, right? Nobody likes having nobody wants that. So when you talk about having a brand that works for you, a website that works for you, it is that initial phase of, like, Nope, we only we want to be a moth. We want the we want to be the right flame for the right moth, not just for everybody,
Cagney C. 31:26
right? Yeah. And like you had mentioned, too, that, like, the prep is hard, and sometimes people don't want to do that, like, research phase. And like I mentioned, it takes the longest bit, and that's where really a brand designer comes in, because you may not know how to do all of that research phase, but an example would be say you have to paint your house, or paint paint a room. You're not going to go and just pick a random color, put no tape up, put no drop cloth down, and then just paint, because then you're going to have to go back to the store because you didn't like that shade, because it didn't curate the right vibe. Back to a vibe curation, and have to repaint everything, retape everything. Now you got to paint your baseboards, because you got paint all over them. You know the prep is and the research is the biggest stage that makes all the difference, right? Well, and having
Collin 32:21
a good guide too is important on this. You know, you mentioned paint. I'm getting hot over here because we just, we went through getting paint and everything and going to swatches and all this stuff. And it was nice to have somebody who was at the store who could kind of say, like, hey as a third party here, don't do those two colors. What are you doing? Okay, cool, cool, right? Because we have to admit that we don't know everything. So I know you are a designer and you work with brands. So what advice do you have for business owners who are looking to work with somebody as far as like, good qualities to look for if they are wanting to go work with somebody for branding and web design.
Cagney C. 33:03
Yeah, I always say like to everyone that the most important part of a business is the connections that you make with people. So definitely hire a designer that you feel comfortable with and care and who cares like someone you can easily talk to. I feel like sometimes people don't always look into that, but it's going to make a world of difference of how the process goes if you guys have similar communication, Scott styles, like all those sort of things. So you know, we're seeing us as designers are seeing the ins and outs of your business. So I'm always like my clients, biggest cheerleaders, I'm always grateful I get to be a part of that journey for them. But so you're going to want a designer that you can easily talk to, someone you can easily feel comfortable saying all the ins and outs of your business and trusting them that they're going to be able to, you know, design a brand that you're obsessed with, and makes a world of difference in your business, also someone who knows their stuff. You know, when you're hiring a designer, you're hiring them for their expertise. So you'll want a designer that is honest and will tell you something won't work, like your personal preferences, like we've been talking about, and why it won't work. Because if you have a designer that is just like, I don't know, it's just like being a puppet for you, of just like, Yeah, okay, I'll just do what you want. That's at the end of the day, you're going to have to go back and get your brand redesigned, because it won't work for you in like, a year's time, you know. And then also a designer whose style that you do love this goes, I guess, a little bit into Preferences. But if you see a designer's portfolio and think, oh my gosh, every brand they design is like, so cool, I love their work, then you're likely on the right track. Another example would be say you're looking at like a photographer to hire for your wedding, and you. Like light and airy photos. You don't want to hire a photographer that does very like dark and moody, you know, brand or ways that they edit their photos. So find a designer whose work you absolutely adore.
Collin 35:13
You know that hiring somebody who's going to push back on you can seem counterintuitive, but it's essential, right? Because I don't want to hire somebody just because they're good at, I don't know, Photoshop or whatever. Like, that's just a skill. That would mean I need to hire somebody that's good at Photoshop, once I have my brand and they can go make flyers for me. Like, that's what I that's that's a completely separate thing going, Okay, you implement this. But the design aspect, I'm hiring somebody for their expertise and their ability to push back on me. That's really where a lot of this gets refined and gets made better. We have to be humble enough to go, I don't know everything. Otherwise I'd be doing my brand, my own brand, right?
Cagney C. 35:56
You may have done and it wasn't working for you, which is why you're here, you know? Yeah, and
Collin 36:00
so going, I'm needing help, so I need to kind of, and this is, I'm mostly speaking to myself with this Cagney of going, I just need to be I'm just on the river. I'm just flowing with it. I'm getting input. I can still have my personal opinions. I'm going to have feedback to give, and I'm going to have questions, and there's going to be discussion. But I need to come in with this with the mindset of being flexible, and I'm speaking to somebody who I hope knows what they're doing, and I've vetted them, and I've spoken with a couple other people. I've gotten a feel, I've I've looked at their portfolio. I kind of know what to expect. I can come with my likes, my dislikes, and then be part of that process and understand I need somebody to be a guide to me who isn't just going to ask me three questions of, what are your favorite colors? Who are you talking to, and when do you need this, right? Like, that's those are very unhelpful, absolutely,
Cagney C. 36:46
because it is collaborative at the end of the day. Like you're going to have a, in a way, working relationship with the designer that you would want them to be honest. And the same goes with you. You know, whenever you're giving feedback to the designs, to be very honest, in the feedback or things like that. So, yeah, well,
Collin 37:06
and you mentioned the being vulnerable too. Like, I've got to come and talk with this person, and have to talk about business specifics. I've got to talk about how I operate. I've got to talk about, probably, you know, dreams where I want to be in five years, because a brand isn't just a one time thing. I want to use this for, you know, five years, a decade more, depending on how things are going. So there's a lot of planning and long term thinking here. With this person. There's just that vulnerability really comes in. Because if we can't be vulnerable, if we're constantly being cagey, we're not opening up to this person, they don't have the good information to work with. They are then stunted, and we're kind of cutting them off at the knees and going, well, do the thing. And they're like, you're not giving me what I need to make this work. So really, coming in knowing it sounds like I really need to be able to give of myself to help this process. Absolutely.
Cagney C. 37:55
I mean, whenever we send this logo and branding questionnaire. It's an in depth questionnaire so that we can learn all the things about the ins and outs of their business and design and all the stuff that helps me so much going into the research phase. So when we've then have a client that gives us all the details. Oh, I absolutely love it, like it helps my process so much. Whereas, you know, if there's a questionnaire that's filled out and it's just like, one word answered, you know, that doesn't give me much to work with, you're basically like, I'm having to take a guessing game where we then go, you know, back and talk it through. Of saying, Hey, okay, let's, you know, get a little bit more details in here, because the more details, the better every time. Well,
Collin 38:45
I'm just thinking of even, you know, in our own businesses, when we work with clients and they have to fill out information for care about a cat or a dog, what do we have to think? What do we like? We like when there's a book written, right? I want to see the I want to see paragraphs of text here. I don't want to just say when it says, How much does your food? Years your cat get fed? And want to say, Yes, right? Yes. You know who's your target client? Yes, that's I'm sure that's frustrating.
Cagney C. 39:13
Literally think exactly like that. So please fill out that questionnaire.
Collin 39:20
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Cagney C. 40:39
okay, Project expectations would red flag, as in, like a designer would definitely be them, not keeping you in the loop. I mean, I think communication should be huge in any business, but it seems like it feels like not everybody does that, so definitely be huge on communication. So like, what's included in each of the packages. What are the expectations like? We always send multiple reminders when things are due. We also have a Slack channel, which is like a direct messaging little app, where the client can easily send us a message if they have a question, comments, concerns. So really huge on communication and keeping you in the loop at every single touch point of okay, I'm doing, you know, I'm updating the primary logo right now, like I'll be back within probably 20 minutes or so to give you an update. Now that is a lot of communication happens even more so with our clients, since we do these brand VIP days that are live, you know, chatting with the client, but just every touch point. And it's great, because our clients love it too. They're like, Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for, you know, the update. Can't wait getting so excited all the things. Whereas if I were to just say, like, or she gives someone gives feedback, and I'm like, okay, great. And then I'm just like, gone for an hour. You know, the client's gonna be sitting there, like, um, so she updating my logo, like, what's
Collin 42:10
going on, getting coffee, what's Yeah,
Cagney C. 42:12
exactly, exactly. So definitely, if your designer not keeping
Collin 42:18
you in the loop of things realistically, kaggy, from your perspective, is it realistic for me as a business owner to to expect, you know, indefinite or an unlimited amount of revisions to the process or, you know, or should I come in expecting I get four or five and then I need to be done and happy? Oh,
Cagney C. 42:39
okay, this is a good question. Totally depends on the designer with us for the brand VIP days, you're technically paying us for the time spent, not the deliverables. Though, 90% of the time we get all those deliverables done, but we want it to keep going until you love it. If that comes to, oh, we're at the end of the brand VIP day, and you still feel like there needs to be some revisions, you often have to then book additional time with other designers, because, you know, they spend loads of time working on your brand, and deserve to be paid for that time, just like you deserve to be paid for doing all the dog walking. If you were doing extra dog walks, you don't want to just keep doing them for free. So definitely depends on the designer and how they run their business. Some people are like, one concept method, type designers, and you can have like, two revisions, and then after that, not necessarily move on, but again, pay additionally for the time. Yeah, I think
Collin 43:48
that's really important for us to remember, and it's why all that work on the front end is so important. Because, you know, I know, like, I tend to just focus on, oh, I've got to work on designing the thing. Well, so much work has and thought and meditation and discussion has happened before even the, you know, the pencil hits the iPad to start designing that you hope that all that front end work will lead to a much more efficient, actual design and back and forth process, absolutely and that, that that's really where front loading helps so much and yes, to just be perfectly you know, I'm glad you mentioned being honest here. Going, we, we should never expect somebody to just do unlimited stuff for free that I would, that would never fly in my business, right? I'm not doing unlimited walks for free. I'm not spending unlimited time at a client's house for free. I can't do I can't afford to do that. So we need to come in eyes open, going, I that. And again, I need to be honest with people. I need to dig into this work. I need to be thoughtful about this. I need to be intentional with this. And I need to, you know, move forward. And sometimes that does mean, I'm sure going look, my personal preference is I'm battling that all the way through of I don't really like that, but I'm going to trust this person to tell me that this is actually going to be beneficial in helping attracting my clients. So I need to be hands off and just let it go. Absolutely. Yeah, you talk about that front end work. Maybe we've already talked about this Cagney, Cagney. But as far as having a good relationship with the designer, how do we how can we prepare ourselves? What do we need to be doing or be ready for so that by the time we're talking with somebody, we can be productive and making the most of that time.
Cagney C. 45:25
Yeah, absolutely, definitely, give honest and detailed feedback. So whenever I, you know, send in the designs we talked about this earlier, about saying the more details the better, because it helps us where, you know, we're not mind readers as much as we may want to be, but feedback saying, like, I'll know it when I see it is not effective. You know, if I send you a design, you're just like, I don't know something's off. You know, let's give dive deeper. What feels off. Or you could say something like, Okay, this shade of red doesn't feel bold enough, considering, I want my target audience to feel energetic when they see my brand, so this red feels just too muted, or something like that. That is a lot more helpful feedback than I don't know. I'll know when I see it, because then we're spending so much time back and forth. Of me testing out, is this? It? Is this? It? Do you see it now, you know, so give that honest and detailed feedback up front helps so much for the final product.
Collin 46:32
Yeah. And many times we can, you know, again, second guess ourselves as to what, what it actually is important. But just talking it sounds like that's really beneficial. The more we can talk, the more that conversation happens. Well, I might not know exactly what it is about a photo that, or graphic, or, you know, element kind of gives me the huh. I don't know. I need to try at least, right? I need, I need to give something other than next, right? What do you what do you think? What do you expect the person to do on the other end? Go back to the magic eight ball and shake it up a little bit more, and then give you a design like, what like? That's right. So
Cagney C. 47:09
there are some things where it's not like, you know, we're asking you, okay, tell me exactly what changes to make to the logo, because, right, you hired us as the expert, so we should know those things, and we do. But when we think about, you know, giving that honest, detailed feedback, of thinking, okay, when I first saw this brand, how did it make me feel, you know, did it make me feel serene and relaxed, or did not? So think about those sort of feelings, and if you then tell me, Oh, this isn't feeling like the vibe that I'm wanting to achieve or whatever I can then go from there and make those, you know, expert design decisions, to alter it and get closer to where we want to be but also about being honest in that feedback. There's definitely ways to be kind when giving, you know, that honest feedback, that's huge, you know, because at the end of the day, we're people too, and of course, we know not to take anything personal, because, you know, it's your business, and we of course want you to be obsessed with it and all the things, but always be kind with your feedback. There's kind ways to say you don't like something. You know,
Collin 48:31
you mentioned the man, that's just so true, and I'm gonna pair that of being kind with also you mentioned about describing how we feel. It really sounds like we need to be kind of open on that day and not having scheduled 11,000 thing else things to do on that day, right? I can't be running from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing to thing thing and then give open and honest and genuine feedback in a kind way to the designer, no matter who we're working with, if I don't, I'm not able to sit down and go, How do I feel about this? Right? How do I let me search my emotion that takes being vulnerable I can't also then be having a, you know, 100 other things on my mind, or be frantically trying to multitask with doing phone calls and scooping litter and also working with a client and doing all this other stuff. I have to have time set aside to do this, because then I really can go, Okay, let me take a big breath before I open up this email and let me see this, get my first impressions. Let me take this time. Let me go, take a walk. Let me think about this, because otherwise, then we're not actually being honest with this, where it's being filtered through tons of other things that are making us angry and crabby, and, you know, just a general blob muck kind of day, and then you're left going, I don't understand. This doesn't make any sense. Like, why? Why is the person liking this
Cagney C. 49:51
exactly? Yeah, definitely have a clear schedule if you're gonna, you know, book a brand VIP day, because, you know, you are investing. That money into, you know, giving your business a rebrand or whatnot. So definitely invest the time to, to spend the time of, okay, let me just think about this, looking over these designs, so that we can not only achieve that goal faster, but also make it into something that you really love and not come back, you know? A week later, of saying, Oh, well, I was just so busy that day, and now that I'm looking at it and taking some time, I don't know if I like it, you know,
Collin 50:32
yeah, I've slept and I've had some tea, and I have thoughts, right? Well, so you've mentioned the VIP days, and I know you guys, you guys do these, but what what makes these unique, or what makes them kind of special for from a from a business owners perspective, yeah,
Cagney C. 50:55
so rather than, like, a lengthier, six to eight week timeline to get a brand complete, we design it in just one day. Now we talked about all the prep. It's more than just one day, but it is one day of being live with the client, of designing the actual brand. So it's also our most affordable option, which everyone loves to hear. So you're getting a brand quickly, but then you're also saving some money there, and it's perfect for getting those foundational brand elements complete. So things like your primary logo, your additional logo variations, those colors, fonts, brand patterns, and even potentially actual like brand icon or element designs. So it really sets you up for success, and being able to do it in a quick timeline, well, so
Collin 51:49
I did want to you mentioned the foundational brand elements. Can you walk through those again? As far as patterns, alternate logo? What do those actually mean? And when would I use those? Yeah,
Cagney C. 52:02
absolutely. So we always start your branding with the primary logo. From there, when we're creating additional logo variations, it's so that your brand can go in every single touch point. So say your primary logo wouldn't be able to fit in, say, like a social media profile image, so you'll want a more simple version of that logo. So a lot of times, we're skimming back that primary logo so that it can go all the way down to potentially just like an icon design. Think Nike, you know, we see the word written out as Nike and then the Nike swoosh, but we also just know that swoosh icon as a logo, and able to recognize it. So it really helps you in every single different application, just because your primary logo is not going to fit everywhere, and it doesn't need to be especially think things like your website favicon, that little, tiny image up at your URL, your primary logo, with all the details of what your business name is, is not going to fit in that tiny spot. So being able to, you know, minimize it down to an icon design and then the colors, the fonts, as far as brand patterns go, these are really great for adding some visual interest to your brand that can be used in tons of different ways. But some very popular examples would be, say you have testimonials on your website, instead of just say, putting a solid color background behind those testimonials, you can put in a pattern to add in a visual interest. I use the patterns a lot on, say, a business card or even some social media templates, again, just adds in a bit more personality to your brand. And then the icon design. People really love these for having, like, different icons associated with different services that they may have. So say they do dog walking, do a little leash that feels on brand, or they do pet sitting, do like a house, you know, different things like that.
Collin 54:16
You mentioned the Fave icon, and I'm sure a lot of people just kind of had a little record scratch of what are you talking about. So yeah, if you don't have one of those, get one because it makes you stand out, but also because what that does you mentioned that people have a lot of tabs open. Sometimes it'll hide the text of what that tab is and it'll just have a little photo. Let's have a little icon there. You need to have one of those so that you're easy to find in people's tab groupings. I know not everybody keeps 17 tabs open, but like I sure do, and I so it's very helpful. But also, I was even thinking of, let's say you have a logo and you go to get an embroidered shirt or an embroidered hat. Many times, embroidery shops can't do all of those little fine detail. Of different eye color and an eyebrow here and all this stuff. They need a simplified thing. And we're left going, Oh, well, how do I Oh, I guess I can't do this, so I'll just do my text. I guess we end up having to, kind of, you know, back off of our initial goals there. So when we think about, how do I use this? And that's just part of that consistency too, of going, well, I've got a logo, but I can't use it because it's too, too intense, right? It's too detailed, so I've got to use words, or I've got to use text. In these other cases, that's not being consistent, then that's not it's not as easily recognizable,
Cagney C. 55:31
absolutely, absolutely. That's a great example.
Collin 55:34
So walk us through what one of these VIP days looks like, because it sounds kind of intense. So let's say I've do like, how much sleep do I need to be ready for this?
Cagney C. 55:45
Well, don't worry, we do give you a little Starbucks coffee, you know, to start the day off, but the week before your brand VIP day is when I really get into that mood board and prepping. So I believe about two to three weeks ahead of that time you've already filled out the logo questionnaire, so you've had some time to really think about how to fill out all those answers. And then a week before your brand VIP day, I send over a mood board. So this really makes sure that we're on the same page design wise. So mood boards include things like your color palette, inspiration, fonts, photography, style, pattern design and more back into that vibe curation. What do you feel whenever you see this mood board and it's created with their branding questionnaire and target audience in mind. So you'll then give feedback on that mood board about three days prior to the brand VIP day. And from there, I'll take all that feedback and then design to primary logo concepts. So I'll send them your way at the very start of that brand VIP day. So let's say your brand VIP day starts at 10am and it goes it ends at three No, yeah, 3pm so the VIP days are five hours long live on the in the Slack channel with the client. So I'll send them your way, of course, record a little video going over them, why I made those choices and things, and then you'll start giving live feedback, and I'll make any tweaks and edits. So we'll start with that primary logo, and then we move on to the rest of the brand, once that primary logo is approved. So into that additional logo variations, the colors, the fonts, the patterns and icon design. And that's all the things. And then in 48 to 72 hours, I'll send over your final brand files, and then also a brand guide that tells you how to use that brand correctly. What
Collin 58:01
kind of file formats did you send over? Because I know this is a discussion that people have. I see it a lot on Facebook groups where they'll say, Oh, I had, I had something made, and I went to a print shop, or I went to a, you know, get embroidery, and they need, you know, XYZ format. So what can we expect to get back from this? Yeah, so
Cagney C. 58:18
we send PNG files to the transparent files, a JPEG, and then an AI file, which is Adobe Illustrator file, that's essentially the program that us designers design your brand in, and then also an ESP, or EPS, I should know that ESP, but essentially it's a vector file, which I know to like other people, that's like, What the heck is a vector? And that's all the things. But essentially, a vector file is so that they can blow up that, you know, logo at a huge scale, and it's not going to get pixelated. An Adobe Illustrator file does the same thing. It's also vector based, so that EPS or ESP file that can be opened in any sort of platform. So that's why a lot of times they're asking for that type of file,
Collin 59:14
yeah, yeah. That that scaling, because we may get little something that's, you know, you know, 1000 by 1000 pixels on our on our thing, but in order to print it, they've got to upsize it or upscale it to something, and then all of a sudden it gets blurry. And we're like, Well, what happened? It looked fine on the computer. It's like, Yeah, well, that's what happens, right for you. Cagney, I mean, how do you just from a designer like, like, designer perspective? What is your process? You get a bunch of text, and then you have to make an image out of this with, I'm sure you don't have to give away any secret sauce, but just like, from a like, like, personally, what is that like? Because I can't even fathom what that process is like to go through. Yeah,
Cagney C. 59:52
I'm sure to like other people. It seems very overwhelming, but for me, I get in like, a little design hole and like, music. Gets playing, and I'm having a great time. So the process we've talked about a million times, starts with the research phase and then going in to say, Pinterest. Everybody knows about Pinterest, going in and looking through there for some inspiration, and then creating the mood board. Once I then create the mood board, and it's all approved and the things and I'm designing the concepts themselves, I would start with the actual fonts. So looking into different font exploration, I could, you know, say a bunch of different design lingo, but I feel like it didn't make much sense. But having, like, oh, a serif font or a sans serif font. And do I want, like, a bold and chunky font? Do I want something that's more thin? So I always start with the fonts themselves, because that, in and of itself, creates a vibe and really helps me as a good jumping off point. And then from there, I'm laying out the text. How can I lay it out in a unique way? And the final thing that I do, if there's any illustration involved, which not every logo needs an illustration, I feel like some people get hung up on that, but if it does need an illustration, then I go into the illustration design and all the things, yeah, that's in my life again.
Collin 1:01:22
Yeah, it's just magic being able to do that. It's just wizardry. And I think it is important to note, as a business owner, especially in the modern day and age, we need to know where these elements are coming from, so that we don't get slapped with things like copyright infringement or or, you know, cease and desist take down letters, because I see those a lot. I mean, I mean, it's really beginning bad where people use different services or things like that, and it's just like, grabbed off the internet and thrown in there in some way. And so having that conversation of going, Yeah, where are you getting this? Is this from an open source? Are you creating this? You know, from, from, you know, completely unique, bespoke, is this a stock image? And really understanding that, you know, being open with that conversation is important from a business owner's perspective too, because if I'm investing money in something, I can't have this, then just turn around and be worthless to me. Because, Oh, these are all stolen images, and I actually owe, you know, 1000s of dollars to this publishing company. Absolutely. I
Cagney C. 1:02:21
mean, we've had, you know, say there's a case where you really love a logo, and you're like, hey, I really like this logo. Can you just do this for me? Like, I, you know, we can't do that. I'm not going to just, you know, straight up copy anything like that. Because not only are you going to hit with the copyright, but you're also not going to attract your actual audience. Going back to the very like, beginning of this episode, that we want something unique for your business, you know,
Collin 1:02:53
yeah, yeah. Well, and I know on that. I know maybe people may be running through their head right now going, Well, can I just use, you know, AI for this. So I actually kind of curious on your perspective of AI usage and in the role of design and for business owners. Oh,
Cagney C. 1:03:09
that's a good question for me. I don't like it in the design space, yeah, say when it comes into like, Photoshop has some AI that I do like because I'm not savvy with the, you know, all the Photoshop things, like a photographer is, and so in those spaces I do, but again, it's just at the end of the day, it doesn't have that human element of, okay, this is how I want something to feel, yeah? And you know, it's just, I don't know, I'm not a fan. I'm a fan of, like, say chat GPT. If I need to, like, think of some brand color names. I use chat GPT all the way, because I love, you know, coming up with different unique names for them, instead of just saying, Okay, here's blue, purple and pink, or things like that. Yeah,
Collin 1:03:59
no. Again, just we, it's we need to be doing our due diligence of of doing something and using, using tools and elements that are going to be attracting our clients. Because at the end, that's what it's about and and working with, I think it's important to just work with professionals who know what they're doing, as opposed to hoping and, you know, basically praying and spraying of like, I guess I don't know. Here we go. That's just, that's just wasted time, and it's frustrating for years afterwards. So I think that that's just, we need to be active in that, take an active role in the design and and working with with what's important to us. Because this is, this is our business, right? It in the elements are necessary and important Absolutely. Well. Cagney, I really want to thank you for coming on the show today and walking through what it means to have a strong brand and how that attracts people, and also sharing what these kind of design elements look like and how to work with a professional, and even about the VIP days that you all work, work with and you do. But for those who are interested in getting. In Touch seeing more of either your work or what all this looks like. Specifically. How best can they do that? Yeah, so you can go
Cagney C. 1:05:08
to pet marketing unleashed.com/contact, to start the actual process of working together. And then if you want to look more into our services, you'll just go to pet marketing unleashed.com/services, there you can see all the design packages, even more details about the brand, VIP, day, the investment, things like that. And then also follow us on Instagram at Pet marketing unleashed.
Collin 1:05:34
Okay, perfect. Well, I will have all of those links in the show notes and on the website so people can click and get connected with you all and and see if that's going to be a good fit for them, and kind of learn more about branding as well, because you guys are posting tons of educational content as well, and it's really cool. So Cagney, this was, this was an immense pleasure. I really thank you for your time today, for coming on the show. Yeah, I
Cagney C. 1:05:54
had so much fun. It was a lot of fun. I love talking about all things branding and web design, so it was right up my alley. What
Collin 1:06:01
does your brand say about you? Also equally as important, what does your brand not say about who you are and what you do? As we craft our businesses, the image that we project will both attract and repel certain clients. It is up to us to be intentional about what messaging is being put out there and how we are being represented across all platforms. My personal struggle is in separating my individual desires and likes and dislikes from what the brand is supposed to be as we work through how to combine our personal preferences with a brand that attracts clients that might not be us. It's important to remember that at the end of the day, it's your brand, it's what you want out there, and that's one of the most powerful things that we can take away from when we brand and work on our business. We want to thank today's sponsors, tying to pet and pet perennials for making today's show possible, and we really want to thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week, and we'll be back again soon.
1:07:22
Hello, that? You.
