254: Beyond Training with Garrett Stevens
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Summary
Do you speak dog? Garrett Stevens has spent his life trying to understand what the animals around him are saying. Garrett owns Stevens Family Kennels and Dog Language Center, and questions everything when it comes to dog training and behavior. The use of touch is extremely important in a dog’s control of their environment and gives us clues as to what they need. Garrett gives advice on assessing whether a dog is mature and how to foster a better relationship with them. Your clients are looking for family members, not robots, which means we get to help them find balance.
Main Topics:
Touch responses
Dog language
Finding balance
Working with family
Main takeaway: Pay attention to the dog's body language and use of touch to control their space, to start moving beyond training and into relationships.
About our guest:
Garrett Stevens is husband, father of four, and an author, speaker, and chronicler of dog language. Founder of Stevens Family Kennels and Dog Language Center, Garrett and the Stevens family have been professionally helping dogs and teaching people for almost two decades. Garrett’s groundbreaking books on dog behavior, language and calm, natural training help clients and readers across the world understand the pitfalls of mainstream dog training and boarding practices while simultaneously guiding the open-minded reader into Nature’s ways and how all socially-skilled dogs communicate, interact and behave. Clients and other professionals in the industry are often shocked to find that there is little to no need for food treats and no need for harsh handling either when using the Garrett Stevens Method of natural dog training!
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Dog Myths: What you Believe about Dogs can come back to Bite You!
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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
Provided by otter.ai
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
dog, people, training, work, pet, touch, language, touching, clients, kennel, older, puppy, behavior, kids, gift, treat, space, balance, nature, test
SPEAKERS
Collin, Garrett S.
Collin 00:10
Hello, I'm Meghan. I'm Collin and this is Pet Sitter confessional and open and honest discussion about life as a pet sitter brought to you by time to pet and pet perennials. How do you speak dog? What does it mean to watch a dog's body language and start interpreting what they are trying to communicate and tell you while you're around them. We speak with Garrett Stevens, owner of Stephens family, kennels and dog language center today, where he describes his approach to understanding dog language. We also learn more about how we can build relationships, as opposed to reinforcement in training. He also gives us some great fundamentals that every pet sitter and dog walker should have in their tool belt when they start working with people's pets. Let's get started.
Garrett S. 00:56
Yeah, thank you for calling. This is a fun little opportunity here for us. And so we appreciate the invite. And yeah, basically been studying dogs for the past 17 years, and been working with them professionally. 16, almost 17 Now as a trainer, and then eventually as the kennel owner, where our Stevens family kennels has 4000 square feet. So it's not a small place. It's not a giant place either. But it's it's a fairly larger facility. And we get to help a lot, a lot of families, a lot of dogs, a lot of people
Collin 01:34
so 17 years ago and it used really key word there that I love, you started studying dogs, what got you studying them in the first place?
Garrett S. 01:44
Well, I'm a huge animal nerd, I always have been started with like, when I was a boy dinosaurs and lizards and frogs and all that kind of stuff I had lived in Florida. And so the you got some living dinosaurs there. And it catching them and you know, messing around with the tree frogs and the little lizards and then seeing the Gators and the whole deal. But it kept you know, spreading and my parents were very good at at, you know, kind of encouraging the curiosity and any kind of thing where I wanted to let my mind play and go down those roads. So you know, it kept just kept I kept growing. From there. Basically before, right, you know, when we got married to my wife, Amalia. I wanted to say, okay, got the wife now I gotta get a dog, you know, kind of just going on the checklist? No, not really, but, but a little bit, right? We want to get a house and I wanted to make sure I had a house with a fenced yard. So I could get my first pup you know, as an adult, and do do this thing, you know. So before I even did that, though, I started, you know, reading everything I could and, and getting really into it, I'd go to Barnes and Noble and sit there and exhaust all that. And then it kind of just spread from there more and more. And once I got my first pup when when neighbors and family and at first they thought I was a little crazy, because they're like, Oh, why can't they not lend a puppy just jump all over me. And this kind of normal greetings and stuff, I was kind of, you know, very into training. So but then after a couple months of that, and when they saw my pop it like six months old, seven months old, could bring in the groceries and, and do all this weird stuff. It really started to spread kind of a little bit of a local reputation. And then that's even said, Oh, you could be a trainer. And as a Well, I kind of am very into it. And then I started reading and studying even more very specific books on on behavior and training and wolves and dogs and canines. And you know, the whole deal. So it from that point, it kind of started spreading and is a bit of an unorthodox start. As far as that kind of beginning because I didn't just do what other trainers were doing. I mean, I was a little, but then I started to kind of question all that stuff. So
Collin 04:10
well. So how would you describe your approach to training and your philosophy?
Garrett S. 04:15
Yeah, so we'd like to say that ours is different. And if it's growing then good. I don't know, of course, of what the training industry is always going to be adapting should be. We're, I'm always kind of critical if things aren't close to nature, when you're working with nature. If you're going to be dogmatic about something it should be about the dogs, what they do. So our training approach is different. We do begin by questioning everything. And sometimes they think that there's behaviors for trainers out there that kind of don't do that and and sometimes the industry itself lends itself to limiting that. That questioning that curiosity, because they're like, this is the dog And we take the treat and we make it to the sit. And that's that's it. And I'm like basic is good. I like basic. But I think that sometimes we need to observe nature more and say, Well, what what is the mother and father dog do in this situation they they're not equipped with, with treats. They're also not equipped with with prong collars and Chuck calls any of that stuff. So you can take both sides of the spectrum. And then what we try to do really specifically in our, in our behavioral work, and our work with clients, is we subtract what we can. So a lot of training is we're going to add the watch me when I add the down, we're going to add the state we're going to add this and add this excitement and motivate you want to become Tony Robbins, to this dog to motivate this dog and motivate this dog and get this dog in the highest performance state. And I said that's awesome. If you're doing dog sports, it's awesome if you're a canine handler, and the dog is a professional working dogs, but what we've discovered is that most clients and most dogs across the Earth are not professional working dogs. And is so we look to actually not just add, we usually subtract and say well, what can we streamline? What can we take away and reveal the nature of the awesome nature of a dog and, and get that kind of calmness going? Because let's face it, a lot of people have busy lives, they actually don't need a pumped up dog in their house most times. Or if we're talking dog sitting, we don't want to watch a lot of pumped up hyper attic control dogs.
Collin 06:40
Right? Yeah, there's there's a lot that that gets built up, I think especially over time with dogs that kind of compound. With with more. With older dogs, more mature dogs, I can definitely see you're kind of stripping things away. But when you get a new dog that comes in with with a with an owner, what how do you start going about assessing what needs to be removed in that dog? And what are some common things that you find? Yeah,
Garrett S. 07:06
that's a great question. Cool. I love that. Because I think that how to is is key. Because instead of just me putting my program on you and your dog, I want to discover what's what's what kind of first. And the beautiful thing about dogs. One of the things I think everyone or most people are drawn to them is because they're going to be honest. And they're good. They're just, it is what it is, if I'm fearful dog, I'll let you know, I'm afraid if I'm no more controlling dog, I'm going to try to control everything through touching, and space and movement. If I'm hyper I'm going to be hyper all the time and, you know, whatever they're going to be very honest. And, and so what we look for when when they say you go to the car and bring your dog to where either a training appointment or to be canceled, we can see a lot of how the dog is interacting with the owner. And we look specifically to touch and how, how is the dog touching the owner house dog tried to attend that initial attempt to touch us? And it doesn't just mean through? Is this dog gonna bite us or not? That's very clear, of course, if they're going to try that, but a lot of people don't know that. Dogs are super, we say they're smart. But what I've kind of think I've discovered over the years is they're incredibly socially smart. And, you know, there's tests out of a Max Planck Institute, I think it is in Germany, where they outsmart chimpanzees in certain intelligence tests. Because they're cheating off our paper, so to speak, they're they're reading the human face, or they're seeing the human eye contact of the human hand motion. And technically, they don't have the brain capacity to even do it. They do it. So if they can outsmart a chimp, and socially they've been living with us for millennia. There they can also manipulate very well. So and I know some people don't like hearing that because they just want to love on fluffy that's fluffy. Let me love on fluffy. But it's very good to take an honest approach. So what I look for is did the dog try to over touch me? Did the dog come up and lean against me and a lot of people interpret that just as love but I have to take a deeper approach in our in our work. So I can't just say I will just chalk up to affection. Every every touch from a dog even if it's kind and they're seemingly happy, is not cannot just be I just love you and that's it. It's it would be a nice fairy tale. And I think a lot of people do believe that but what I found is they can still love you and want control. Just like my kids. So for me too. I want control over their bedtime, you know they're young. So, as a loving father, I still Want that control. But a lot of times, we don't realize our dog may care a lot about us, but still seek to control through touch and space and movement, and then energy. Those are kind of what I what I call the four pillars of dog language, not including the smelling and tasting, which is a huge bulk of it. But I don't include that as far as our our training methods, because I'm not going to go up and smell the dogs, but thank God
Collin 10:27
yet, who knows, but always evolving, I guess. Yeah,
Garrett S. 10:31
that's that's the future. I'll leave that to the kids.
Collin 10:36
Well, I think I think that's a really interesting thing to remember as, just as pet sitters were coming into dogs, spaces in their own homes, or they're coming into a kennel or boarding facility a lot of times, and many times we're trying to read their body language, but we do forget to look at how they are living in the space. What are they trying to how are they existing, right, they treat their environment away a certain way. And then we India as a new element, and we have to be looking for not just the sight eyes, or the ears or what the dog is physically doing, but what they are doing around them and how they're trying to control that.
Garrett S. 11:14
That's right. Because any animal of course, on the planet is very concerned with their space, their environment, and every little thing within it, because it's a survival you know, mechanisms system survival technique. So they have to it's like a huge deal if you observe dogs and how the older dog especially, yeah, I love learning from the older commerce socially skilled dogs, and when how they interact with a fearful dog with a skittish dog with an aggressive dog with a hyper young pup or, or just with another calm dogs that they're getting along great with. It's very interesting how they pick and choose, do I ignore this, which speaks of I'm trying to trust you over here, other dog, but I'm also taking away my eye contact to let you calm down a little bit, do I address this, I'm gonna turn my eye contact towards you kind of say, hey, this space is mine. That's enough now settle down. Or do I just switch the play. So those are usually like the what I call the three elemental parenting techniques. From older dogs. They use which ignoring speaks of trust, addressing speaks of respect, and then play is that other you know, discovery and, but it's very nice, because even after play, there should be calmness, even after the ignoring says, Hey, go to my face, calm down. The addressing says, Hey, I told you a couple times with the ignoring now I'm coming towards your space. And how they interact in the spaces is really key for for good behavior.
Collin 12:50
I think that's a very common scenario, especially the past couple years where people got new dogs, and maybe they had an existing dog, an older dog, and they're trying to do this introduction, that's a thing that a lot of people experienced. And that can miss out a lot of pet parents because they have this young puppy coming in, and the older dog does a lot of addressing, as you said, kind of correcting these behaviors. And a lot of times that can be misconstrued as a lashing out or aggression or if they start stressing and worrying that they've done something wrong. Yep, yep,
Garrett S. 13:23
that's exactly that, what I usually suggest there, if people concern about that, is they the old left the old dog correct, as long as the older dog, you know, isn't very skittish itself, because they can then they're going to tend to overdo it. And also another key to look for physically is if they come flying off the bed to go like it's one thing to snap near. It's quite another to get up and go all the way across the room. Because then they can teach the puppy fear and and and that kind of thing. What I
Collin 13:56
love about this discussion is it's really revolving a lot about the language of dogs and you know, the name of your your business is Stevens family, kennels and dog language center. So, what why did you decide to lean into that? And what does that really mean to be a dog language center?
Garrett S. 14:13
Yeah, yeah. So dog language to me is is it means we can finally move beyond training and kind of try to get into actual talking. We can kind of start forgetting reinforcement I always mentioned this one forget reinforcement focus on relationship to me and to me, that's a huge issue in in the dog training world and with most most people we see, because we're so hung up on, okay, again, I got to add this, this think as they know, you just have to start moving a certain way or, or touching a certain way, or being aware like we mentioned about the space of what's happening in this space here. And the more you do that, It gets simpler, it gets easier and everything. on the training side of things, even advanced training when we're watching a video and we see an incredible Belgian mouse, you know, doing incredible tricks I say, I always have to question or after I watched that video, say it was a great job on the basis leave it did great flipping off the building, doing two flips and catching the Frisbee. But I have to say, could I trust that dog calmly at home without my instruction? without me telling it precisely what to do? Could my three year old that's the youngest of the four, pull on the dog's ears and be fine. Now, of course, I teach the three year old don't do that. But at the same time, we want that dog to have a great understanding of relationship, healthy relationship and healthy communication and in language that says, Oh, my No, this child committed a social faux pas in dog language, but I'm a mature older dog so I can forgive it right? And forget it. I don't have to bite it. Right. So it gets to be simple. And that's what I love. Because Bruce Lee had a quote, simplicity is the last step of art. And that's kind of how we look at our stuff now is that it's the art of dog language. And it's, I'm trying to simplify stuff. They all have caught on at all these famous guys, right? Einstein, whatever, if you can't explain it simply enough, you don't understand it well enough, something like that. So we're trying to, I want to dumb it down as dumb as possible for me, and then forget it for everyone. Because then you get the fastest result. And I don't want to just say fast for speed. But the best results all around for human and dog.
Collin 16:47
Well, I think, too, that starts getting at a lot of questions about like, when, when that happens, when does this start and I noticed on your email signature, you have this quote by Robert Stevenson that says, Don't judge each day by the harvest, you reap, but by the seeds that you plant. And as I'm hearing you talk about what you're trying to do with the dogs in your life and with your clients lives, it's all about setting these little things right now that are going to expand and grow in the future.
Garrett S. 17:17
That's right. It's, everything's like a garden. You know, and a lot of people, you know, if we go back to the touching kind of thing, or the dog language of touch, space, movement and energy, it begins with touch, right? Because that's the dogs for sense. They're born blind and deaf. Helen Keller style, right. So how important was touched to Helen Keller. If you can't see it, most people know that dogs and puppies can't see for a couple weeks. But they don't know that they can't fully hear for like three weeks. So that's the last sense to develop. So if we're doing what you and I are doing now, a lot of talking back and forth the human words. You know, probably 80% of dogs out there would just be like, Well, I'm not listening, I don't care. But but if you go back to touch, primal touch, which doesn't mean you're hitting a dog, or any of this stuff, I'm talking about touch, we have many different ways we touch the dogs, and they're not always exciting, it is a good little test a lot of lot of dogs, even friendly, friendly, friendly dogs, you go to pet them. And they might say I see your energy, and I raise you 100 And they're gonna say keep keep doing it, keep doing and they'll wag and they'll jump. And again, remember, we usually just interpret that as love, and it can be but it can also be a little bit of a one up touch. And eventually over time, like you mentioned, a garden that that can grow like a weed into you know, I've been dominating kind of through touching that me now who told you to stop give me a massage pet my belt, I'm gonna sit my butt on you. You scratch here, do this pet me now pet me out pet me now. Until soon. They're just like really rude. And they're knocking over kids. And they're bumping into old ladies. And they're doing all this stuff. And we have to kind of say, Hey, back off a little bit, just like that older dog would say, when the puppies introduced. My Space is my space. And you're the new kid on the block, you have to kind of steadily build that. I find it very fascinating that usually people do the exact opposite of what older dogs do with the pups, people because they're so cute, and we appreciate beauty and all that we're finding all over the puppies. Meanwhile, the puppies like you give me all this attention, which I did not have when I was with mom. My mom had nine of us the puppies thinking this and she she kind of started weaning us at three weeks old by walking away three and four weeks and then started even maybe depending on the pups and the breed and the tenacity. Maybe even growling or even snapping at us come 567 weeks to say Get away from me with those needle teeth. And then we get cute adorable puppy and we we give it constant eye contact and attention. And that can drive any dog or person. Nuts. Right? We can all think of like a movie star that had too much attention too much fame, or some childhood. I don't know. Macaulay Culkin, God bless him. He kind of ruined his life for a while there. He was in Home Alone got so much attention. And then Then what happened? You know, so same thing with our dogs quite a bit. That's a very modern thing that happens.
Collin 20:33
Yeah, over 30 Good.
Garrett S. 20:36
No, I was just gonna say the over attention is something to be aware of. And when you want to claim your space, it doesn't mean you walk around all the time, like a gorilla. But it does mean if a dog comes and touches you, I just want them to touch you respectfully, which does not include, you know, jumping all over you or sitting on your foot are leaning against you all the time, or are piling at you all the time or licking you non stop? Because those little seeds that can grow to be more more and more touching through the mouth to eventually go into a bite. Yeah. Over time.
Collin 21:09
Oh, that's again, a really good reminder to be cognizant, aware, watchful studying the dog ever encounter. And when we're coming into their space, how are they interacting with us? Have you heard of time to pet Dan from NYC pooch as this to say
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Collin 21:46
were looking for new petsitting software, give time to set a try, listeners of our show can save 50% off your first three months by visiting time to pet.com/confessions. Of a pet sitter and their pet sitters listening and dog, walkers and trainers, what are some things that they can start doing whether to work with their clients or on their own when they are taking care of pets to start setting up some more healthy boundaries and relationships with those dogs.
Garrett S. 22:12
So one of the main things that I love is the initial thing. So if you're looking to influence behavior, look to the bookends of behavior, the beginning or the end, right. And let's take this touching, we'll go with that more, because that's a big part of dog language. You walk into someone's house, you know, they Oh, hi, I'm here to you know, watch your water your plants and of course, take care of your dogs while you're gone on vacation. And they, the dogs come running up. And most people want to, of course show and kind of sell themselves, that they love dogs to the owner. And that's very understandable. However, if you can delay the, I'm going to come down and let these dogs you know Rubble of me and acknowledge them and try to ignore a little bit more. In the beginning, you're kind of setting the tone to make the relationship much, much easier going forward. Which doesn't mean you're being rude, you can still give a pet or two, but you're trying to give your attention to the human, not the dog so much, especially if the dog is trying to really be pushed
Collin 23:22
out, which does happen an awful lot. Yes, yes, as you said, it's a more modern problem of these over affectionate or over touchy dogs, trying to push those boundaries. And it's our role and responsibility to come up and set those early. Kind of set the tone for how it relationships is going to be.
Garrett S. 23:39
If you guys can focus on the dog language, it will start to eliminate some of the fluff in training. And I always suggest working a decent heel in the beginning because it's a chance to bond shoulder to shoulder with a dog. But then it also it doesn't it gets them exercise but it gets them mental exercise as well as the physical exercise because they have to play Simon Says and watch your leg and the whole deal or watch the toy or watch the treat. I'm not huge on treats because though that can backfire in the long run. But you can use treats certainly of course. But we want to try to go to the heart of the issue and meet the dog's needs. Instead of sometimes just masking it with with with petting and coddling or masking it even with training. See, we see that sometimes sometimes we'll have a police canine handler bring his dog to us for a session. And this dog has had you know 1000s of dollars spent on training and it's a very obedient dog. But it still whatever bit the wrong person or went after dog a dog it's unkind or isn't good with dogs or something like this. And I say well what happened? You have some of the best obedience in the world. What happened? But I see but you don't have the dog doesn't have like, you don't have an understanding of dog language to the person And the dog doesn't have understanding of its own language many times if it's dog aggressive or dog reactive. So that means we want to want them to learn genuine dog language, which means the human isn't manipulated by the dog little tricks and little one ups and touches and spatial movements. And then we they both parties get to achieve calmness much better, they get to reach more maturity, which is, I think, kind of rare among dogs. I'm not just talking about maturity, because the dog is old. I'm talking about behavioral maturity, which means I have self control the dot the darkness is the dog, the dog has self control, the dog doesn't have to react, but it can respond intelligently. Well, I
Collin 25:42
think at the core of that is building that that trust and as he mentioned, doing something like is just starting as with that basic getting a decent he'll in because you're starting to communicate with one another, you're learning their mannerisms, they're learning yours, and how you're going to interact with together and doing those simple things. And staying up to date on them helps build that so you know what to expect from one another. When it comes to other things about dog language? What are some things that you would recommend dog walkers and pet sitters know and start practicing with just
Garrett S. 26:12
one more thing, if I can add to that feeling? You're also once you're practicing a decent heel, it's actually you know, the the dogs looking up at you and they're they're walking beside you, the next step is for you to take away your eye contact so that they can, you know, I almost sometimes will tell clients you're earning leadership points, the more the dog is looking at you and you're not looking at them is that that's something all older dogs do. All older canines do. You can observe this on the nature programs, you can observe it whatever, you can watch a lion on the on the, you know, an African plane. And the younger ones are they're trying to bother him, he just looks away. He's kind of saying you follow my lead. But I don't need to constantly micromanage you. And that's sometimes where I clash heads with a lot of the industry advice for training? Because they want to say, well, this dog can go to its bed and stay and this dog doesn't. But I say but why does he have to do it hyper number one. Number two, what would he do if you weren't telling them exactly what to do? Does he because they're this smart. That's what that's trying to be my message to everyone is they're smart enough to not have to be constantly worked, which is usually very anti training advice. Because most trainees and you got to work on you got to work and you got to constantly do my job. And I said, Yeah, but in the first book, I wrote dog myths. I mentioned how most dogs are now semi retired. So I don't need to constantly work. Especially picture this, you have an excitable dog, you just got your rescue pit out of California, wherever I'm in Washington. So we get a lot of dogs from California and Texas. They come up in the rescue circuit. And I got this rescue pit or pit mix or whatever, or whatever, hyper Chihuahua or something. But he they're already the dog is already hyper. So now I'm going to take an ad excitable training to an already excitable dog, and then somehow expect calmness. That does not that's not a good equation. Also, it's against nature. And it's against common sense parenting. So I like to qualify whatever we do with does this line up with nature. Number two, is this calming? Because calming is is is key for for actual leadership in animals, right? Number three, is this going to get us results that are that are what the you know, the client wants and what the dog needs. So it's very interesting, but sometimes taking that eye contact away, to bring it back to the healing thing, or whatever. When you walk in the door. It's saying I'm trying to trust you. It's saying everything is fine. So instead of me coddling the dog, if if I have a fearful dog, where a client has a fearful dog, I don't comfort him and say it's okay. Instead I look away because that's what the mom would do is to signal that everything's fine. If it wasn't emergency, I'd have to look at you, I'd have to come look, you'd have to come nudge you. I'd have to, you know, try to do something. But sometimes doing nothing is the answer.
Collin 29:26
That reminds me we had a client a little while back, who was going through training, and she had a big she kept saying, I don't want a robot. But I want your dog to be able to be themselves. And what I'm hearing from you is there are training methodologies that they go into these command action command action where the dogs always obeying. They're very good at it. But they don't have this. They don't have this balance in their life. They don't have the self sufficiency and self reliance and self confidence to know that they have agency in within certain contexts and boundaries, and so really sounds like it's all a lot about setting balance and knowing that balances. So for you when it comes to balance, is that a? I know you mentioned earlier about you kind of assess for each dog, but but how do you know when something when a dog is in balance versus being out of balance?
Garrett S. 30:19
Yeah, that's a great question. Because balance is seen in all of nature, right. And we try to teach anyone who's willing to listen, you know, the way of the dog so to speak, and how, you know, how the parent dogs and the older social example dogs will do things, and I use my dogs daily in our training business. And they're in and out of the kennel too, as are the kids and as our so the dogs are getting super exposed. That's another huge thing. Of course, the more exposure dogs get even dangerous dogs, the more normal they get, like a normal what we would what we would call normal in our modern society. Because a lot we're you know, we're asking quite a lot about for for a modern dog. And the old days, they were just employees and do your work, and kids don't mess with that dog, it'll tear you up, you know, whatever. The kids weren't amazed with that anyway, because I think they were more connected with nature and outdoors. Anyway, so they new to me now in the modern world, dogs are one of our last links to, to the earth and to to nature. But anyway, back to balance here. It means, you know, to me, it also means as a behaviors trainer, and kennel guy, whatever it means I'm free to disagree as gently as possible. But directly to with a rude dog or aggressive dog or a fearful dog trying to freak out. And I don't have to be brutal in any way. It also means I can agree and not have to bribe with treats are reinforced constantly. So because with my older daughter, she's 13. If I am always reinforcing everything she does, I'm doing her homework half the time soon, she can't do anything, she can't operate that right in life. There's there's a, there's the balance there. So when we talk about with dog stuff, I talk about firmness mix with calmness addressing and ignoring. And it problem in a lot of training or a lot of dog human interactions is they're there, they've got the hyperness, they can pump up a dog, they can pump up the pump in the training world are. But they're very rare to find the ones that can calm them down. And so you always want to have both sides of the spectrum, sort of a yin yang type thing.
Collin 32:35
You need to be able to have that that trust that when you're not there. Things are going to go well and that yes, you're going to obey whenever you are. Yeah,
Garrett S. 32:43
yep, that's right. That's right. And to me, and now I'm even sometimes saying to people, well listen, you if they come especially with a mindset, I gotta work this talk, because some do and others come with I don't want the robot. And it's sometimes we need to make the dog a little bit more robotic and obedience because it needs to still listen. Other times we have to say, Hey, listen, you got all the obedience, your dog needs to relax and have some freedom learn to smell again and not be rude and this kind of stuff?
Collin 33:12
Yeah, well, I think part of that, you know, you mentioned the word maturity earlier, and that was maturity of character maturity of dog. What role does maturity play in training? And how do you know whether a dog is mature or not?
Garrett S. 33:28
Yeah, yeah. To me, when I think of maturity, I think of the ability to make sound decisions, good decisions, to have self control. So and the dog that means really, the dog has control over its energy. It doesn't just practice constant high energy because in nature picture the coyote in the backwoods there. It would just die if it was constant high energy, right. But yeah, because if we're being honest, a lot of dogs, if they just suddenly had to go back to work in the wild, or or even on a phone, they would die because they're so used to freaking out at the mailman and freaking out at this and freaking out over that. Right? Instead of saying, oh, you know what, I can still bark a couple times and I can relax and have understanding of that mailman comes every day so I don't lose my mind and here. Now it to me the maturity is I'm free to say instead of the training, we can actually cultivate the real maturity in the dogs were like you mentioned, like we talked about, they don't need to be micromanaged. And they're they're not they're normal. They move to me it moves them from employee to family member and maturing individual. Because a lot of people if they're keep harping on about work, especially in my industry, the trainers and all that the trends and behaviors and those doing board and trains, they're saying not to work, I'm going to work I'm going to we're going to say well, is this an employee a free employee, or is it my family member? Yeah. And that's wild because it agrees with primal nature, like the coyote example, is saying calmness is good and the balance it but you know, it also agrees with it helps a dog in the modern world saying calm down.
Collin 35:17
Well, and I know public perceptions around dogs has been increasingly moving to the spectrum of they are a family member. I mean, something like 60 70% of people polled in the United States said, No, this is a family member, if I'm if I'm a pet sitter, and I noticed that the family wants the dog to be a family member, but they aren't acting like it. But they actually are being trained. They're actually working on training to be an employee. How can I start having a conversation with them about maybe trying a different technique? Right?
Garrett S. 35:49
Yeah, that's that's where it's a little tricky, right? Because I'm sure that's the majority of cases that disconnect where the industry is saying we'll do this and pump them up and give them these these rewards and make them do tricks and half of which is kind of frivolous, but good for certain companies, bottom line selling things. But, you know, they, I try to open them up to the idea that I think you want calmness in the household Correct? I'll ask questions like, we don't need more more attention in most cases. Now, again, with the caveat of that balance, being tension is what keeps my instruments in tune. Tension is what helps grow the muscle. As long as the enak can be exercise that can be heal, that can be some of the addressing of discipline by spatially moving forward a little bit, said, Hey, back off, don't be rude. I like when one method just to give you a quick example, if a dog or pup tries to jump on us, what we teach our clients is, I don't turn my back unless it's three months or younger, the puppy because then it's ignoring and half the dogs I deal with will just jump on your back anyway, they don't care if you turn your eyes just certainly don't drop treats on the floor or any of that stuff, I stepped forward. So and if I can intercept by stepping forward, when I see the two signs that all dogs give when they're going to jump on you, then it's even better for me because they don't even accomplish going up. So there's two signs they give before they jump, they're going to look for eye contact. And you know, 95% of time, they're going to try to square up into your center line. So they're looking to as they're dancing, and it can be happiest dog on Earth wagging their butt and going crazy. But they're coming up, they're gonna look at your face, and they're gonna dance right in front of you. And those are the two sides you say, Oh, you're about to jump up, aren't you? So now I'm going to step forward and creating a wedge in the space, which means that dog has to go to the right or the left, and then they come down a couple of those reps. dog doesn't jump on you again. It's very gentle. If it's done properly this talk language stuff. But I got off topic here. I'm sorry about
Collin 38:05
No, I think what it's because it is you mentioned it is simple. And many people don't want overcomplicated or they get lost in the shuffle of the training regime whenever they go back to their home and are trying to implement that in their normal lifestyle. So it's things like stepping into that space, it's things like looking away and avoiding eye contact that actually a lot easier and more consistently easy to implement in their actual daily lives.
Garrett S. 38:33
And and way calmer. It's a way more relaxed solution than saying okay, God, he's jumping on the bus, go to your bed that's 15 feet away and stay stay stay stay on your bed. Instead, I just say back off me a little bit at the front door. And now you can be near you're still part of the group here. I'm not shunning you or sending you to outer limits up there. But where the dog incidentally if you do send it to the bed then has to practice even more patients and usually might have the opposite effect. Because if you freeze a predatory predators movement, even domesticated predator like a dog, they often will skyrocket the energy. Think of a lion in the ticket. They're looking at the prey, One Mississippi, they see the antelope to Mississippi, the energy is going up while they're still in that bush. Then they explode from the thicket they explode from the bush and the energy is released on the chase. So when we freeze a dog this is also some dog language tell I don't know if this is interesting now. But when you if you freeze a dog, you can expect an explosion and a lot of people train their puppies from a very young age. Because that's general training advice to be frozen then have an explosion at the front door when they're going out the door. And then they wonder why the dog pulls or before they feed. They say Wait wait wait wait look I've made the dog stay. I'm gonna I'm gonna put the food down now while he way way Hey, stage they say backing away, and then they say okay, and then the dog. The dog builds in some dogs, they the owners don't even know that they're building food aggression and resource guarding into the puppy because they made it wait so long, or because they made it, freeze and then that built the energy and exploit. So again, it goes back to those four pillars of touch space movement and energy. They froze movement, and then they pumped up energy. That's what the third upcoming book is about. A little flow plug their
Collin 40:32
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Garrett S. 41:44
Yes. What's it like money? Did you want some?
Collin 41:50
Okay, that's enough for me. Yeah. What's it like running a kennel with your family?
Garrett S. 41:56
Yeah, it's it's it's fun. Most days. It can be hectic can be crazy. We there of course, we have to maintain a balance as well. You know, sometimes we want them in there helping other times we might have, you know, a few dangerous cases in there. So we don't need them as much in there. We're trying to buta my thought, because we have a 13 year old girl, an eight year old boy, a five year old girl and a three year old boy. So it's it's nuts. The girls overall are pretty responsible with it. And I've also kind of hired dad part time here for odds and ends and property management. So he was retired, but I pulled him back. Back into the working game, he was never involved in my dog stuff at all. But now Now he is. But my five year old daughter, especially, she loves to follow him around and help with him. And so it's good. And of course, my wife does an incredible job. Amelia is the head of the kennel and all the scheduling for both sides, the handling and the training. And she also is involved. She does the books, the taxes and the whole deal. And now, you know, the kids have been homeschooled too. So it's insane.
Collin 43:13
That's, that's, that's a lot. And I know, people may hear and go, Oh, you've got these kids, you know, as young as three around all of these dogs? How do you work on educating your kids about safe behavior around dogs?
Garrett S. 43:26
Well, I just lift the dog so that they bite that not just kidding. The dog warned, you know? You didn't see that? No. Well, the good news is, you know, the kennel is a large facility. And of course, there's fencing and safety precautions. And I do use them, my kids, I use my kids, I use them with dogs that are not good with kids eventually, as I, as I judge that the dog is ready for this kind of thing. Now, that doesn't mean I trust the dog, you know, I based on this touching interactions and some of the discoveries we've made, I don't trust the dog and fully unless I see certain things and see that maturity really growing through the touch. And one quick test for that is can a dog be touched without adding anything to it or taking away from it? That means it can I if I grabbed the dog's tail, does the dog have to turn its head around and lick me or bite me or pull its tail out? Or does it just receive it and do nothing? If I touch the top of the dog's head does the dog just do nothing and receive that little pet? If I you know, pick up the paw. So that's it. That's a maturity test for as far as the touching and behavior goes. And here's the good news guys. If you have a dog that can receive any of that kind of touching and do almost nothing. That's a beautiful sign for trust. But anyway, with the kids. Yeah, it's once a while we do have to boot them out. Because we say Hey, we just got a new border in, and they're doing a board and train for two week board and train or something because of some real real aggression on there.
Collin 45:08
And I'm sure those are obviously a case by case basis. And a lot of pet sitters have either kids of their own, or they're working with clients who have kids, how can we have better safer relationships between our dogs and our kids? You know, you mentioned one about the touch of the test of having doing a quick touch and seeing how they respond. But lifestyle wise, how do we bring balance to that relationship that can be kind of unpredictable at
Garrett S. 45:34
times? Yeah, I think one of the main things just to eliminate right off the bat would be meeting the dog's exercise needs, if you meet the dog's exercise needs. And I know we talked a lot about calmness, and everyone kind of wants to have most most family. Families with house dogs want them to be calm, but they are these from the past. Where they you know, you know what animal holds the land endurance record, the dog, right, because I the I did a rod, right. So they, even more than the wolf and the zebra migration and the whole deal the wildebeest and dogs can do put in the miles. And even if you got a small dog that should not be carted around or carried nonstop, needs to walk, walking is awesome. Even now we know human discoveries about the bear human foot on the earth on the ground is very healthy, and wonderful. But especially if you have an animal, this animal needs to be touching the ground and walking and burning calories and panting. I've seen a lot of people recently or the pet, especially the past decade, where they're they're almost like very concerned if their dog is panting now. And I say it's okay. It's a beautiful system. Because this cardiovascular and the tongue coming way out and the whole deal, we have to let it Yeah, let let it work. It's very good. And as we know, when if we ever exercise you usually feel great after or you you start to ache like I do. As I get older, my one of my knees is starting to, you know, act off. But anyway.
Collin 47:17
Yeah, and I think that's a good part of reshaping the dynamic of what it means to have a family dog or a family pet have we view them as family. So we need to be training and treating them as such. But also still recognizing and bringing that balance back. Yeah. And of going they still the dog still has physical, mental, emotional, relational needs, that I have to meet in some way and appropriately for them. Yeah,
Garrett S. 47:39
and so get get rid of the exercise, you do that right away. And then while you're exercising, of course, you can be little little bit of training in their work in the heel, or a little bit of what we call play training, where we focus the prey drive onto a toy, and things like that. But then even that has to have an off button. Because you don't want to just get a pumped up lunatic that can obey real well if there's a toy, right? Because this is what most people, they, I think initially, most dog owners think that's what they want. If he just obey, he wouldn't attack that other dog. And I said, Yeah, but that's a surface level thing. You have to tell him to watch you or sit what the dog walks by. What if he was so skilled, he could just say, Oh, you're doing Buford, I'm, you know, Fido here, I'm gonna smell you and be fine. And maybe we'll play and maybe we'll just walk by who cares? That's what we're looking for the core of the issue, not not masking anything with tricks. No matter what way they say whether it's positive or punitive, because that's a big war in the dog training industry, too. I say you're both crazy positive opinions you don't need. I just like if I'm parenting, I don't walk in the door at the end of the day with my kids and say, who's getting a present and, and who's getting a spanking or going to their room? There's more to the relationship than the positive or the punitive. Right? There's an actual relationship with communication and love and different nuances and time spent together and all that stuff. So the more they question, what the dog is doing. It's like, what is that touch me? That I think that's a good starting question. And if they need more on that dog myths, the first book does go into more of that stuff. It's called Dog myths, you know, like a false belief, a myth, because what you believe about dogs can come back to bite you because I named it that. Because there was, there's a lot of things that that aren't really so like, we all think that when a dog flops over and shows its belly that that's just submissive or apologetic. And we've all been taught that. I disagree with that. You know why? Because spatially they do that to just get away from your space like Muhammad Ali would dance backwards to get out of the other boxers space. So it does not mean most times There's always exceptions and I before E, except after CS. But in most times, because a human is taller than a dog, and our hands are up here, up, you know, if we're standing up straight, they're not down near the ground with a dog has just flopped with a puppy. So it's very interesting. Now, if I was a snarling, older dog, and a puppy flopped, or a younger, insecure dog flopped, or that would be legitimate submission, because the older snarling dog is within touching distance of that dog's neck. So that's the space and the touch. That's a little example of kind of the work we do. And the discoveries we've made at the dog language center,
Collin 50:36
we've mentioned and given some examples of hyper dogs or dogs, who may be showing signs of aggression, or just trying to figure things out in their world, a really common one that's actually grown in not popularity, but occurrence is separation anxiety. In dogs, it's kind of really through the roof, and everyone's dealing with it. So walk us through some things that we can do as as sitters and dog walkers to start addressing that, as well as equipping our clients with the right tools.
Garrett S. 51:09
Yeah, that's a that's a great one. Especially because, you know, dogs grows up so fast. And rescues adjust. So fast, for good or for bad, right? Usually, most rescues are not all, some of them are in their worst behavior, the first couple of weeks, but most of them on their best behavior the first couple of weeks when you get a rescue dog. And so they're testing out everything who's in charge? What's What am I allowed to do this? Can I grow this, you know, but anyway, the second book I came out with in 2018, was called so long separation anxiety, very short, different read if anyone's interested. But it's about spatially adjusting the anxious dog. So there's no drugs required, there's no peanut butter in the Kong, or any of that common stuff. And I think it's kind of sad when, when the drugs are kind of taking a forefront for this issue, when more exercise and more of the spatially adjusting can really make a big, big splash and it towards the issue in a good way. But you know, it starts it starts with exercise and that proper here like we went over, then we would go right into the touching and the spacing. And you know how we need to be very aware, like we talked about what, but you want to set what's allowed or not, which means if you have a dog with separation anxiety, or you're dealing with one, a client has one, you don't certainly want to Caudill at the wrong times, which is usually when the dog is trying to push it on you and demand it. You have to have a fairly gentle rejection policy of not gonna pet you now, because you're pushing it on me constantly, you should calm that down, I'll call you over and I'll pitch. So what's allowed and what's not in the beginning of the relationship is very, very key. And then you know how the different than how the difference of an inch or two can alter the dog language, and can grow or diminish separation anxiety. One quick example would be skimming. So you put a dog in a crate, a puppy or something or a dog or risk. And they're right at the front of the door raises closing it's almost on their nose. Now, this isn't always a sign. So please, if you have a dog, don't freak out. Not condemning your dog, saying it has separations. But there's always exceptions to the rules. But for the most part, if a dog is right there is right as the doors being closed, or they are the front doors being closed in the dog is like right on your rear, right on your leg right at the door. They're kind of saying, I don't really agree with this, I need to go or I need to not be in here. And does that mean we just give them what they want? Certainly not we have to go to work and go to Costco and whatever, like do some shopping. But it does mean that we have to learn how to spatially maybe back them up a little comment down and then make our departure or close the crate door or what have you. So the difference of an inch or two makes a big difference in dog language just as does the difference of a letter or two makes a difference in a word or a sentence. So with separations it Yeah, we have to drain the dog's body of energy. And then we have to start learning this body language of being very aware of what the dog is doing and what they're expressing because they will just like a human toddler express their needs. If the human toddler is getting whiny, say my three year old. What does he need to you need to be go to the party does he need to you know, get some food to eat? Does he need to some attention some play time? Does he need to be ignored at this moment and say hey, grow up you got to You know, growing up, because you're going to be leaving the nest zone. Not just kidding. But you know what I mean. But you know what I mean, there's, there's, there's times to address, there's time to ignore, there's times to say, Hey, get off me for a second, I'm doing this in a minute, I will give you attention. So where we're directing attention is critical. And we're not directing it on the separation, anxiety riddled dog. A lot of people, I give an exercise, one of the exercises in that book is to practice eye contact denial for like 15 minutes, where you don't look at the dog for 15 minutes. It's incredibly hard. Most people can't do it. It's wild, especially with the dog was so present, because they're trying to get constant attention. Yeah. And it's very interesting. But you know, who's masterful at it? The older dogs, the socially skilled dogs. So I want to I want to learn their ways,
Collin 55:58
I think it's good and helpful to relate it back to things that especially owners, in clients can, can have more connection with, when especially when it comes to like, having kids have like, every night, you know, they're not just the cry, that that doesn't tell you the same thing. Every time the child cries, there's a lot, there's a lot of context there. There's a lot of history, there's a lot of super sleuthing, that is either the parent or the owner have to go through to understand what's going on. And then yes, there is that appropriate time to, you know, what we've checked, all the list of your basic needs are met, it's time to ignore, or this is an inappropriate reaction to the scenario, I need to ignore this as so that you know, that the child knows that the dog knows, oh, that actually that behavior was inappropriate, and I don't get what I want.
Garrett S. 56:43
Absolutely. Because love is meeting the needs. Right? Because you care because you love you're actually meeting the needs. I I, you know, I I don't like when there's like this false meeting of needs sometimes with with people and dogs nowadays, you know what I mean? I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. But I, or they, they care about it, but it's very misplaced, or they're only doing one, they're only putting one part of the equation in or one ingredient in the success soup. And then they they can't make success soup, because they've only got one ingredient, I think we need the other ingredients as well come on.
Collin 57:24
I think a common one there is either the over attention or the over treat. Giving, that a lot of owners fall into with the dog, the dog whines it starts expressing itself, and they devote all their attention to the dog. And then that that scales that goes back to what we were talking about with the the seed that we harvest, you know, we're gonna harvest something at the end of it, whether it's a good or bad harvest, it's kind of up to the seeds and how we cultivate that. And then there's the treating of like, Oh, I just give the dog a treat every time it does something. And each one of those is way out of balance and what the dog is actually needing at that time.
Garrett S. 57:58
Right, right. Yeah, it's, it's very good, very true.
Collin 58:04
Well, Garrett, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. And I'm so thankful that you have helped kind of educate us on moving dogs back into balance and us being imbalanced with them and looking to have more of a conversation, as opposed to and above and beyond just looking at training to the things that we're encountering. But I know that there's an awful lot to cover here and that there is so much more in law things that we didn't even get to in this conversation. So how can people get in touch with you follow along with all that you have going on and get access to some of your resources?
Garrett S. 58:40
Yeah, yeah, thank you calling. Well, we can go to Stevens family kennels that Stevens with a STV DNS family kennels calm. That's one way. We also have a tiny Instagram following. I've been horrible with that kind of stuff. But it's, we're starting to spring it up again a little bit. So you can look for that there. My third book is upcoming that'll be about the five senses of the dog and the four pillars of dog language, touch space, movement, energy, those are available on Amazon or Apple iBooks or whatever. And you could also go to, or email carrot, g a r e TT at G Stephens, dog trainer.com.
Collin 59:29
Perfect. And I will have all those links in the show notes to your website, Instagram and your books so people can start getting equipped with those resources and knowledge today. Again, Garrett, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day and time to come and talk to us. Appreciate it. Collin, thank you so much. One of my biggest takeaways from my conversation with Garrett was just the sheer power of observation, and we as pet sitters we as dog walkers have an immense and powerful opportunity to observe dogs in many different scenarios. in different settings across their lifetime, we can then take what we learned from that and help educate the pet parents about what's going on about what we're seeing. And then we can in turn, apply those lessons to other dogs that we encounter. By simply watching and observing the dog's body language, how they use their space, and how they react to touch and how they use touch to communicate, you'll be better able to meet their needs and help the pet parent. We want to thank our sponsors today time to pet and pet perennials for making today's show possible and we really want to thank you for listening. You hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. We'll be back again soon.
